What would YOU do to save Gibson?

[micguy]

I'm going to disagree with your disagreement.

We agree to disagree. Hopefully, Gibson will pull off a turnaround somehow. It’d be nice to keep them around and healthy.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

The story has reached critical mass. They've been pronounced dead by the media. Even Jan is in on the act.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

We agree to disagree. Hopefully, Gibson will pull off a turnaround somehow. It’d be nice to keep them around and healthy.

I certainly hope it does. There are many companies that can make guitars, but it would be sad to lose such an iconic one, and sad for the employees.

Both Fender and PRS have debt issues too.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

But what’s “cutting edge” when it comes to electric guitars and basses these days? A different pickup? An onboard preamp? Composites or a carbon neck? An even heavier bridge? Adding yet another string?

You can only change a guitar or bass so much before it stops being one - or it morphs into something else entirely - as was the case with the Chapman Stick.

The basic design and 50+ years worth of extensively field tested and heavily vetted mods and improvements have already been created and catalogued. And we now have a very good idea of what works and what doesn’t and how to accomplish it when it comes to these instruments.

So I don’t see where there’s a “cutting edge” any more with guitar. Today it’s small incremental improvements at best coupled with enough cosmetic changes to keep things interesting for certain buyers. Beyond that it’s time to start considering a different instrument to play if that’s not enough.

Dunno. When it comes to cutting edge I just don’t see it as far as the design and function of the instrument goes. There’s room for it in the manufacturing process in order to improve quality and get the costs down. But that’s cutting edge manufacturing. That doesn’t translate out into something that’s going to change anything from the sound or playing perspective. It just makes the existing overall experience more uniformly good for every player.

Or so I think anyway.

To me, cutting edge would be lightweight but super stable, plekked, with pickups that can emulate a range of others, a piezo, and Roland hex output. I suppose that's like some sort of Variax made of carbon fibre. But I'd never need another guitar, so like Alec Guiness in the White Suit, it wiulkd need to be stopped.

 

[40Hz]

To me, cutting edge would be lightweight but super stable, plekked, with pickups that can emulate a range of others, a piezo, and Roland hex output. I suppose that's like some sort of Variax made of carbon fibre. But I'd never need another guitar, so like Alec Guiness in the White Suit, it wiulkd need to be stopped.

Done that way it’d be a chameleon-like instrument. That kind of flies in the face of what the market seems to want - which is to say separate models each with their own distinctive look and signature sound. And make it more retro than ever while you’re at it if Fender’s reissues and pawn shop models are anything to go by. Especially considering the current huge hit they have with their new Mustang.

So how about some real innovation?

Well…Line 6 has the Variax. But after an intial burst of consumer interest it’s now mostly lying fallow. Then there’s Roland’s guitar synths, which really can do virtually anything. But they never got super popular either. And despite their obvious advantages, synthetics and composites haven’t dented wood at all when it comes to body or neck construction. And for electronics, simple classic passive designs remain the player’s choice despite some really fine work being done with active pickups and onboard preamps.

So I don’t think technical innovation is what the market really wants. No matter what the market may say when asked.

Besides…Gibson already tried that. There were the: Ripper, Grabber, G3, Victory, Victory Artist, RD, RD Artist, the low impedance LP Signature and Triumph … but what sold the best through all that? Their classic Thunderbird and EB-3.

So I don’t know if “innovation” is going to help Gibson much. Truth is, the current standard designs for an electric bass and guitar pretty much effectively accomplish everything most people want to do with those instruments. They’re completely done deals when it comes to functional design.

I think (sadly) what might serve Gibson best is a series of prettier and more affordable instruments that (and this is the really important part) are more readily available for players to try and buy. Gibson's instruments need to be seen and allowed to be touched in far more places than they already are.

Funny thing is, Epiphone is pretty much already doing all that. They’re hitting the sweet spot between looks, build quality, and price. And you can easily find and try them out.

Could Epiphone be better? Sure. But most buyers don’t want to pay a huge premium to get that right out of the box. They’ll just buy a really nice looking TBird or LP or SG and change the tuners or swap the pups if and when they have the additional cash and feel the need. Or they can spring for a plek. Sweetwater already offers pleking as a service when you buy a new instrument.

Here’s the thing. Epiphone provides a viable upgrade path. Gibson really doesn’t. Because at Gibson's price point, a buyer expects (and should expect) every part of his or her “Genuine Gibson” to be spot on. And with some of the quality issues people are experiencing, it’s pretty obvious Gibson isn’t delivering in that. And I’m thinking having disgruntled and demoralized employees probably has a lot to do with it.

Oh man! There are so many separate but related über-serious problems feeding into Gibson’s main problem that fixing that dysfunctional company is going to be a huge challenge…

I personally think the best way to correct course and ensure long-term stability would be (1) for their creditors to get real and restructure the debt so it falls within the realm of actually being payable; and then, (2) to allow an employee buyout of the company to fix the management, operating, and morale issues.

But employee ownership and “open book” management (as originally pioneered by Springfield Remanufactuing Corp. during its turnaround) is now considered an old-school “hippy” solution. One that has worked very well most places it’s been implemented. But an organic and logical approach to business problems isn’t that attractive solution to today’s macho finance crowd who just want to wade in and start kicking butts. And those same financiers are the people whi are holding all the cards right now. So I’m not hopeful an employee buyout is gonna happen. Debt restructuring is a different matter. They really don’t have much choice about that unless the plan truly is to kill the company.

But the only way to know that would be if you could seen Gibson’s internal financials and then run some numbers to see if a breakup and sell-off would make business sense. You’d also need to know what the current portfolio strategies and risk exposure of Gibson’s lenders are to figure out the likelihood. So speculating about a Gibson bankruptcy is pointless since there’s not enough information available.

 

[micguy]

I certainly hope it does. There are many companies that can make guitars, but it would be sad to lose such an iconic one, and sad for the employees.

Both Fender and PRS have debt issues too.

So we agree. We've failed to internet properly - I should insult you. Your socks smell.

And yes, the music industry is a bunch of dominoes lined up on the floor. GC may be the first one to fall, and might take one or more manufacturers with it. I hope not, but it's a real, albeit sad possibility.

 

[pudge]

They had a good run,followed buy a not so good run.They'll have to save themselves now.Keep epi around as a reminder

 

[40Hz]

They had a good run,followed buy a not so good run.They'll have to save themselves now.Keep epi around as a reminder

Yep. Businesses and entire industries come and go. In the US there was whaling, the railroads, coal, steel, the nuclear industry, etc. Each seemed eternal and unassailable empires in their day. Then times and needs changed, and new alternatives became available, and they were reduced to shadows of their former glory - or were gone. No company is immune.

And with today’s technology, even something as small as a casual comment made by someone with a huge following on social media can severely damage the future prospects of a company. As Snapchat learned when a mild diss by Kylie Jenner on Twitter took $1.3 billion off their valuation within hours because Snapchat’s share prices took a massive tumble as a result. The underlying cause wasn’t solely because of Ms. Jenner’s comment. But her comment definitely precipitated the plunge.

 

[OldPlucker]

That's kinda the weird thing about guitars. But that being said, I've noticed it in a lot of things, from houses to cars. Loot at the retro trend in muscle cars. Of course, the new ones have five times the horsepower of the old ones - and bluetooth.

There really is very little left to improve in Guitars without making them something else, e.g. the Chapman Stick.

How many Fender clones are out there? The best ones looked at Fender and found areas to make them with features that the consumer should like, Unfortunately, Gibson is being run by bankers instead of musicians looking to improve what they have. Autotune sounds like a concept from an MBA in Marketing who was not a serious musician. I actually liked my 2013 Gibson EB 4 string; but, they had to ditch it and try again. They are showing their lack of commitment and creativity. Gibson's handling of Tobias was a clear demonstration of messing up a wet dream.

 

[mpdd]

i'd make one kickass bass, and if they can't do that just rip off the electronics of the L2000 with the k mod or the new musicman caprice and do a victory inspired body and neck, one artist model and one standard model that normal people can afford

 

[Bob_Ross]

What would you do if you had the wheel? Hypothetically, if you had the power to do anything to the company that you wanted to, what would you do to right the ship, save the day, and bring Gibson back to their former glory?

I would set the way-back machine to 1973. Only make the instruments Gibson made in '73, and sell them for the prices Gibson sold them for in '73.
The trick of course would be, how do you turn a profit when you're paying your workers 2018 wages? I'm not crazy enough to believe there's a simple answer to that hurdle.
But I think reverting to those halcyon days would trigger a rush of nostalgia in older musicians and be like a complete re-invigoration of the brand to younger ones. That's Win-Win.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Done that way it’d be a chameleon-like instrument. That kind of flies in the face of what the market seems to want - which is to say separate models each with their own distinctive look and signature sound. And make it more retro than ever while you’re at it if Fender’s reissues and pawn shop models are anything to go by. Especially considering the current huge hit they have with their new Mustang.

So how about some real innovation?

Well…Line 6 has the Variax. But after an intial burst of consumer interest it’s now mostly lying fallow. Then there’s Roland’s guitar synths, which really can do virtually anything. But they never got super popular either. And despite their obvious advantages, synthetics and composites haven’t dented wood at all when it comes to body or neck construction. And for electronics, simple classic passive designs remain the player’s choice despite some really fine work being done with active pickups and onboard preamps.

So I don’t think technical innovation is what the market really wants. No matter what the market may say when asked.

Besides…Gibson already tried that. There were the: Ripper, Grabber, G3, Victory, Victory Artist, RD, RD Artist, the low impedance LP Signature and Triumph … but what sold the best through all that? Their classic Thunderbird and EB-3.

So I don’t know if “innovation” is going to help Gibson much. Truth is, the current standard designs for an electric bass and guitar pretty much effectively accomplish everything most people want to do with those instruments. They’re completely done deals when it comes to functional design.

I think (sadly) what might serve Gibson best is a series of prettier and more affordable instruments that (and this is the really important part) are more readily available for players to try and buy. Gibson's instruments need to be seen and allowed to be touched in far more places than they already are.

Funny thing is, Epiphone is pretty much already doing all that. They’re hitting the sweet spot between looks, build quality, and price. And you can easily find and try them out.

Could Epiphone be better? Sure. But most buyers don’t want to pay a huge premium to get that right out of the box. They’ll just buy a really nice looking TBird or LP or SG and change the tuners or swap the pups if and when they have the additional cash and feel the need. Or they can spring for a plek. Sweetwater already offers pleking as a service when you buy a new instrument.

Here’s the thing. Epiphone provides a viable upgrade path. Gibson really doesn’t. Because at Gibson's price point, a buyer expects (and should expect) every part of his or her “Genuine Gibson” to be spot on. And with some of the quality issues people are experiencing, it’s pretty obvious Gibson isn’t delivering in that. And I’m thinking having disgruntled and demoralized employees probably has a lot to do with it.

Oh man! There are so many separate but related über-serious problems feeding into Gibson’s main problem that fixing that dysfunctional company is going to be a huge challenge…

I personally think the best way to correct course and ensure long-term stability would be (1) for their creditors to get real and restructure the debt so it falls within the realm of actually being payable; and then, (2) to allow an employee buyout of the company to fix the management, operating, and morale issues.

But employee ownership and “open book” management (as originally pioneered by Springfield Remanufactuing Corp. during its turnaround) is now considered an old-school “hippy” solution. One that has worked very well most places it’s been implemented. But an organic and logical approach to business problems isn’t that attractive solution to today’s macho finance crowd who just want to wade in and start kicking butts. And those same financiers are the people whi are holding all the cards right now. So I’m not hopeful an employee buyout is gonna happen. Debt restructuring is a different matter. They really don’t have much choice about that unless the plan truly is to kill the company.

But the only way to know that would be if you could seen Gibson’s internal financials and then run some numbers to see if a breakup and sell-off would make business sense. You’d also need to know what the current portfolio strategies and risk exposure of Gibson’s lenders are to figure out the likelihood. So speculating about a Gibson bankruptcy is pointless since there’s not enough information available.

Spot on. I offered a form of innovation, and I agree the market doesn't want it. I was tempted by Variax enough to nearly but one. Not enough to actually do so yet.

 

[40Hz]

Spot on. I offered a form of innovation, and I agree the market doesn't want it. I was tempted by Variax enough to nearly but one. Not enough to actually do so yet.

Same here. I definitely don’t need a Variax. And I don’t even really want a Variax. But, y’know…

 

[IamGroot]

Ssll Gibson to Warwick. German quality and ingenuity.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Same here. I definitely don’t need a Variax. And I don’t even really want a Variax. But, y’know…

All my electric instruments are Fenderish, so having an EB2D, or 4003 on tap would appeal, or a Les Paul, 335, etc.

Given my nature, I'd need two Variax basses, two Variax guitars, as backups. Around 2014 it seemed there was a close out on some of the first generation, but they seem pricier now, although it would allow me to do rationalise my collection by a couple of instruments.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Ssll Gibson to Warwick. German quality and ingenuity.

It would dovetail nicely, as Warwick has basses fairly well covered, and could add an SG, Firebird, EB2, and a whole load of guitar and acoustic options. Whether Warwick would want to take on half a billion in debt is another matter...

 

[dukeorock]

Spot on. I offered a form of innovation, and I agree the market doesn't want it. I was tempted by Variax enough to nearly but one. Not enough to actually do so yet.

I had a rep come to the studio once to let me try a Variax. It was almost cool, but not quite anything I’d want

 

[mbasile]

That and the stability of the neck. But yes, if there’s a lot of play in the tuners, or the strings are wound on the pegs incorrectly you’ll get drift and slippage.

If Gibson were smart they’d outsource tuner manufacturing to some heavy hitter like Hipshot. I’m sure they could get them to put a Gibson logo on if they ordered enough. Or maybe not if Gibson no longer cares about somebody else’s name appearing on their instruments. The new EB sports a Babicz bridge. And the big honkin’ name on that thing can be read halfway across the room. That’s something that would have been unimaginable a few years ago.

About the only other branded thing I can recall ever seeing on a factory fresh Gibson before that was the Bigsby vibrato. Gibson had no choice with that since Bigsby still had a patent on it when was super popular in the 60s. So Bigsby got to make the rules.

Funny, I didn’t know about Gibson using Babicz until reading this thread a few days ago. I was just in a local shop and noticed this. I sounded rather bland. Not bad, just not great. I wouldn’t spend $1,000 on it.

 

[40Hz]

Funny, I didn’t know about Gibson using Babicz until reading this thread a few days ago. I was just in a local shop and noticed this. I sounded rather bland. Not bad, just not great. I wouldn’t spend $1,000 on it.

View attachment 2928280

It doesn’t have the character or girth of a TBird or Ripper that’s for sure. But where it does excel (IMO) is with a tube head - and especially with effects. This is an unusually effect-friendly bass. If you’re a heavy duty effects user it might be worth checking out. The bluesmen and metal heads will probably want to look elsewhere.

I’ve been using mine in conjunction with a Southampton Ictineo Preamp; either a Lounsberry Rupert or a Southampton Fifth Gear OD, and a tiny hint of delay courtesy of a Catalinbread Montevillian Echo. That combination works the treat for me. Old school progrock vibe to the nines with that setup. Yessir!

But it’s a lot of hoops to have to go through when I can just plug my Ripper or T-40 straight into my amp and get the same thing pretty much.

It is what it is. I kinda like the looks. And that 7 lbs. plus change it tips the scales at is easy to get used to. As is the excellent balance.

I personaliy don’t think the latest EB would make for a good first (or only) bass. But for somebody looking to broaden their collection with something different it’s interesting enough to consider. Especially if you’re into effects.

 

[mbasile]

It doesn’t have the character or girth of a TBird or Ripper that’s for sure. But where it does excel (IMO) is with a tube head - and especially with effects. This is an unusually effect-friendly bass. If you’re a heavy duty effects user it might be worth checking out. The bluesmen and metal heads will probably want to look elsewhere.

I’ve bern using mine in connunction with a Southampton Ictineo Preamp; either a Lounsberry Rupert or a Southampton Fifth Gear OD, and a tiny hint of delay courtesy of a Catalinbread Montevillian Echo. That combination works the treat for me. Old school progrock vibe to the nines with that setup.

But it’s a lot to have to go through when I can just plug my Ripper or T-40 straight into my amp and get the same thing pretty much.

It is what it is. I kinda like the looks. And that 7 lbs. plus change it tips the scales at is easy to get used to. As is the excellent balance.

I personaliy don’t think the latest EB would make for a good first (or only) bass. But for somebody looking to broaden their collection with something different it’s interesting enough to consider. Especially if you’re into effects.

Interesting. I did play it through a Fender Rumble combo, so that could’ve been part of it. I was surprised at how light it was