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Whatever happened to the Gibson Raid outcome?

#41
As long as proper respect is being shown to all parties I would hope the mods would leave this thread alone. I for one am very pleased that their is a forum to discus this issue (appropriately) as it is important to me and (I believe) my fellow bassists. Thank you TB
 
#44
hdracer said:
Why? Because the Feds came in with a political agenda and some trumped up bs?
If this was real they would have pressed charges a long time ago.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where there is evidence of a political agenda. There is clearly evidence of some misconduct on either the part of Gibson or their importer, with materials "accidentally" shipped in mislabeled containers.

I would assume a company the size of Gibson 1. knows the law, and 2. hires professionals to handle their import/export. I work for a much smaller company who hires people with zero experience and trains them on US Customs as well as some international regulations, and the one thing that is stressed is that anything that is mislabeled or not properly declared will be seized. Everyone knows this. Gibson definitely knows this.

Further, if the items in question (in this case, wood) are later proven to be legal, they will be returned. This happens pretty frequently. I often have a container that FDA or ICE transfers to a bonded warehouse while some paperwork is sorted through. The whole process usually takes a week to ten days, but can stretch on for months if there are questions regarding the paperwork.

If the importer cannot prove the items are legal, they will never get them back. In my experience, the onus for providing the required documents is on the overseas exporter. When one of my exporters cannot provide proper docs, the shipment is returned to them and they eat all of the freight (though this will depend on the Incoterms the shipment was transferred other, basically whether or not Gibson legally took possession of the goods in India or when they arrived in the US).

All of that said, simply being unable to provide adequate documentation is not usually enough to lead to criminal charges- it just results in the forfeiture of the shipment. That Gibson hasn't received their goods back (or been allowed to return them to their supplier) leads me to believe that criminal charges are likely, though I could be wrong. It is very difficult to prove someone intentionally mislead when filling out their forms versus just making a mistake.

I also think it is interesting that Gibson's response has not been through the courts, but through the legislature. If they believe the law needs to be changed, doesn't that kind of make you think they know they broke the law? Whether or not the law as written is just is irrelevant.
 
#45
PDGood said:
There's a lot of conjecture here and blame is being spread without knowledge. That's as dangerous coming from an individual as from a government.

A Gibson employee off the record told me that they have a history of questionable activity in regards to violation of import laws concerning exotic or restricted woods. And I'm taming that down from the way I actually heard it. The newspaper here (where Gibson is located) reported that the wood was in containers marked as something other than what it actually was. This was supposedly "a mistake" but one that appears to have happened more than once.

I'm not going to say who is right or wrong here, but that's the closest information from knowledgable sources that I've heard so far. So is it an over zealous government or someone who wants to make money regardless of if laws are trampled or not?

All I'm saying is, don't be so quick to jump on the band wagon of saying it's the fault of the government without research and knowledge. That's just shooting at an easy target because it is so vast and filled with millions of people none of whom can argue back with you.

In general, government is a good thing - I wouldn't want to be without it. They inspect our food and water, research diseases, build roads and try to keep law and order based on laws which are established by...us. True, there are lots of unscrupulous people in the government, and change is needed imho, but that's a separate topic.

On the topic of Gibson vs the govt. in this case, clearly there are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about - probably on both sides. Best not to guess where knowledge is insufficient.
Click to expand...

Informative and non-political.

Thank you!
 
#49
beggar98 said:
I'm not sure where there is evidence of a political agenda. There is clearly evidence of some misconduct on either the part of Gibson or their importer, with materials "accidentally" shipped in mislabeled containers.

I would assume a company the size of Gibson 1. knows the law, and 2. hires professionals to handle their import/export. I work for a much smaller company who hires people with zero experience and trains them on US Customs as well as some international regulations, and the one thing that is stressed is that anything that is mislabeled or not properly declared will be seized. Everyone knows this. Gibson definitely knows this.

Further, if the items in question (in this case, wood) are later proven to be legal, they will be returned. This happens pretty frequently. I often have a container that FDA or ICE transfers to a bonded warehouse while some paperwork is sorted through. The whole process usually takes a week to ten days, but can stretch on for months if there are questions regarding the paperwork.

If the importer cannot prove the items are legal, they will never get them back. In my experience, the onus for providing the required documents is on the overseas exporter. When one of my exporters cannot provide proper docs, the shipment is returned to them and they eat all of the freight (though this will depend on the Incoterms the shipment was transferred other, basically whether or not Gibson legally took possession of the goods in India or when they arrived in the US).

All of that said, simply being unable to provide adequate documentation is not usually enough to lead to criminal charges- it just results in the forfeiture of the shipment. That Gibson hasn't received their goods back (or been allowed to return them to their supplier) leads me to believe that criminal charges are likely, though I could be wrong. It is very difficult to prove someone intentionally mislead when filling out their forms versus just making a mistake.

I also think it is interesting that Gibson's response has not been through the courts, but through the legislature. If they believe the law needs to be changed, doesn't that kind of make you think they know they broke the law? Whether or not the law as written is just is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Let's try it this way.
If this was a private citizen who's house was raided by the police under the assumption that the house had illegal fire arms.
They come in, confiscate all the weapons in the house. It would be up to the DA to press charges. If the charges are not filed in a timely manner. The defendants lawyer would file to dismiss. A judge would rule to bring charges or drop the case and the defendant would get his weapons back or the DA would press charges and go to trial, if he could get this week case past a Grand Jury.

Why has there not been charges filed?

Like I said, look deep. The answer is there and it is political. I wish I could post the links and go deeper into this but I can't. Ask yourself, why was Gibson the only guitar company in the US to be raided or even looked into?

It is black & white. Gibson ether broke the law or not. If they did, prosecute them, if not give their property back and get ready for a lawsuit.

A case like this would never stand up against a private citizen and a police force. Only a government bureaucracy can get away with this against a corporation.
 
#50
hdracer said:
Let's try it this way.
If this was a private citizen who's house was raided by the police under the assumption that the house had illegal fire arms.
They come in, confiscate all the weapons in the house. It would be up to the DA to press charges. If the charges are not filed in a timely manner. The defendants lawyer would file to dismiss. A judge would rule to bring charges or drop the case and the defendant would get his weapons back or the DA would press charges and go to trial, if he could get this week case past a Grand Jury.

Why has there not been charges filed?

Like I said, look deep. The answer is there and it is political. I wish I could post the links and go deeper into this but I can't. Ask yourself, why was Gibson the only guitar company in the US to be raided or even looked into?

It is black & white. Gibson ether broke the law or not. If they did, prosecute them, if not give their property back and get ready for a lawsuit.

A case like this would never stand up against a private citizen and a police force. Only a government bureaucracy can get away with this against a corporation.
Click to expand...

It is not black and white. Your insistence that it is shows that you have no understanding of customs enforcement in the US and internationally. The goods can be found to be illegal without Gibson having broken any law. If Gibson believes the goods were seized illegally, they can very easily provide the proper documentation and have them returned, or they can go to court.

To say that this is the same as a private citizen having illegal guns in their home is incorrect. Simply possessing guns illegally is a crime, with mandatory sentences and so forth. Possessing goods that were illegally imported is not. Knowingly subverting ICE to import the goods is. It is easy to prove the goods were imported illegally, it is much more difficult to prove they were done so intentionally to subvert the law.
 
#52
beggar98 said:
It is not black and white. Your insistence that it is shows that you have no understanding of customs enforcement in the US and internationally. The goods can be found to be illegal without Gibson having broken any law. If Gibson believes the goods were seized illegally, they can very easily provide the proper documentation and have them returned, or they can go to court.

To say that this is the same as a private citizen having illegal guns in their home is incorrect. Simply possessing guns illegally is a crime, with mandatory sentences and so forth. Possessing goods that were illegally imported is not. Knowingly subverting ICE to import the goods is. It is easy to prove the goods were imported illegally, it is much more difficult to prove they were done so intentionally to subvert the law.
Click to expand...

I think the best thing to compare it to is taxes. If the IRS says you underpaid, they take your money. If the IRS says you lied to them in an effort to underpay, then you get prosecuted. Either way, if you believe the IRS is wrong you can go to court to defend yourself.
 
#53
beggar98 said:
I think the best thing to compare it to is taxes. If the IRS says you underpaid, they take your money. If the IRS says you lied to them in an effort to underpay, then you get prosecuted. Either way, if you believe the IRS is wrong you can go to court to defend yourself.
Click to expand...

So you believe the government can do what ever they want and you have to prove your innocence? The IRS does it and now more unaccountable government agency's can stomp on peoples rights?

You refuse to see the political aspect of this whole thing.
Just like the IRS can have agendas.
Charge them or drop it.
 
#54
hdracer said:
So you believe the government can do what ever they want and you have to prove your innocence? The IRS does it and now more unaccountable government agency's can stomp on peoples rights?

You refuse to see the political aspect of this whole thing.
Just like the IRS can have agendas.
Charge them or drop it.
Click to expand...

It isn't a question of belief. It is a question of laws, laws determined by our elected officials. Look, I'm not arguing whether or not the law is just- again, I think the fact that Gibson sought relief through the legislature, not the courts, shows they know they broke the law as it is written. If they get the law changed it might help their cause, but those pesky unintended consequences will definitely throw a wrench in someone else' day-to-day operations. Such is the tangled world of international business.
 
#55
beggar98 said:
It isn't a question of belief. It is a question of laws, laws determined by our elected officials. Look, I'm not arguing whether or not the law is just- again, I think the fact that Gibson sought relief through the legislature, not the courts, shows they know they broke the law as it is written. If they get the law changed it might help their cause, but those pesky unintended consequences will definitely throw a wrench in someone else' day-to-day operations. Such is the tangled world of international business.
Click to expand...

You can turn that around, if the Feds are right prosecute them and fine the heck out of them. I do not know what kind of fine it would be but I am sure it would be very large and keep the property.

I am not a lawyer but I have read the law and the interpolation that the Feds took is bs.
Put it to twelve regular people and you will have a acquittal.
Wanting the law written more clearly is a smart thing for Gibson to do for themselves and any business that uses imported wood.
 
#56
hdracer said:
So you believe the government can do what ever they want and you have to prove your innocence? The IRS does it and now more unaccountable government agency's can stomp on peoples rights?

You refuse to see the political aspect of this whole thing.
Just like the IRS can have agendas.
Charge them or drop it.
Click to expand...

Presumption of innocence applies to criminal law and not necessarily to rules put forth by government agencies. If Gibson is charged with a crime they will be presumed innocent unless proven otherwise.

If customs thinks the stuff has been illegally imported they are required to impound it. No different than if you unknowing purchased stolen property.
 
#57
hdracer said:
So you believe the government can do what ever they want and you have to prove your innocence? The IRS does it and now more unaccountable government agency's can stomp on peoples rights?

You refuse to see the political aspect of this whole thing.
Just like the IRS can have agendas.
Charge them or drop it.
Click to expand...

What political aspect? What possible gain could the govt have unless they have a lot of musicians who want free Gibson gear? I guess maybe political donations could have something to do with it but why mess with such a small fish unless, maybe, Gibson broke the law. A for profit company breaking laws to pad a bottom line isn't exactly unheard of.
 
#58
beggar98 said:
I also think it is interesting that Gibson's response has not been through the courts, but through the legislature. If they believe the law needs to be changed, doesn't that kind of make you think they know they broke the law? Whether or not the law as written is just is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Not really. Suing the government to get their property back would take a long time and be a crapshoot. Getting friendly congressmen to work for them is probably easier and faster.
 

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