The laws concerning this seem to me very similar to the laws that OSHA has for hazmat transportation and storage. Your paperwork has to be flawless. And the law must not allow for "Oops my bad" or "I can't find the paperwork". Otherwise people like that "friendly congressman" will abuse the law until it protects no one.
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Whatever happened to the Gibson Raid outcome?
- Thread starter XtheDeadPawn
- Start date
notverygood said:
As a business owner that has to deal with OSHA I can tell you first hand that if they find you in violation they fine you right away and maybe shut you down.
Have you looked deep into this or just read the headlines and hearsay?
Yes this does go deep into politics on both sides and why I keep myself & my business out of politics.
I think you've maybe only read politically-charged accounts. Here's a link to the affidavit which was used to obtain the warrant to search Gibson. The relevant portions start around paragraph 10:
http://jonathanturley.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/20110819154237897.pdf
If Gibson had used the correct HS code, the goods never would have been allowed in the country. They used an incorrect code. If this was a mistake, they could have affidavits signed by the supplier and re-apply for entry. If this was intentional, they are looking at some heavy fines.
beggar98 said:
Yes I have read that.
That is affidavit for a warrant. Where are the charges? Sense when does a warrant to search mean the defendant is guilty?
Also, why were shipments to Taylor & PRS not looked into?
My point was about record keeping, not punishment. I've read the links in this and other threads, both pro and con articles, and I've seen no evidence that is is deep into politics. Seems to me that an error in recordkeeping has occured, and the govt is checking to see if any laws were broken. Why is this not approriate?
This is probably a coincidence, but has anyone else noticed that a lot of the very pro-Gibson guys have a lot of Gibson and Epi stuff in their profiles?
notverygood said:
You believe it is appropriate for the government to come into a business and confiscate property and then years later decide if any laws are broken?
And yes I do own Gibson products, I own more non Gibson too. As a American and a business owner I find this kind of thing disgusting.
Here's what I've learned from this thread:
Beggar98 knows what he's talking about.
Nobody else has any idea what s/he is talking about.
Beggar98, I have an expertise in a topic that is hotly debated on the internet and in the media, and 99.999% of people have honestly no idea what they are babbling about. Take it from me, you are wasting your time.
By the way, does anybody care about the OP's question? What is the outcome of the raid on the Gibson plant?
Beggar98 knows what he's talking about.
Nobody else has any idea what s/he is talking about.
Beggar98, I have an expertise in a topic that is hotly debated on the internet and in the media, and 99.999% of people have honestly no idea what they are babbling about. Take it from me, you are wasting your time.
By the way, does anybody care about the OP's question? What is the outcome of the raid on the Gibson plant?
entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts
simple - stuff imported under false pretence, originator & buyer to show that it wasn't
can't do it - we keep the stuff
BTW, when we talk about the Gov we're talking about US
that's our Rosewood now = sell it
simple - stuff imported under false pretence, originator & buyer to show that it wasn't
can't do it - we keep the stuff
BTW, when we talk about the Gov we're talking about US
that's our Rosewood now = sell it
Beggar98, I'd appreciate an answer to this, i think it might help hdracer understand as well. From what I understand, what is going on at Gibson is roughly equivalent to this completely hypothetical situation:
Say I board a plane from Australia to the US. When I land for a connecting flight, TSA finds out there is a scorpion in my bass case. Obviously, I am not allowed to have a scorpion on the plane, (without proper permits etc. idk about scorpion transport law) so they take it from me.
But, unless they can prove I intentionally hid the scorpion, I didn't commit a crime, because an honest mistake (gibson=mislabeling goods, me=not checking my bags for scorpions) is not a crime.
Regardless, possession of scorpions on planes is not allowed, so I can't keep the scorpion even if they can't prove I intentionally committed a crime by smuggling it onboard.
Did that make sense?
Say I board a plane from Australia to the US. When I land for a connecting flight, TSA finds out there is a scorpion in my bass case. Obviously, I am not allowed to have a scorpion on the plane, (without proper permits etc. idk about scorpion transport law) so they take it from me.
But, unless they can prove I intentionally hid the scorpion, I didn't commit a crime, because an honest mistake (gibson=mislabeling goods, me=not checking my bags for scorpions) is not a crime.
Regardless, possession of scorpions on planes is not allowed, so I can't keep the scorpion even if they can't prove I intentionally committed a crime by smuggling it onboard.
Did that make sense?
You're entitled to your opinion of course. As for me, yes I think it's appropriate. Otherwise you could bring anything in and claim paperwork errors. I distrust the govt at times myself, but I distrust corporations just as much. I was just joking around about owning Gibsons, BTW.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
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- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
The question is why did Gibson get raided and not other manufacturers who use the same wood to build instruments?
Also why is our government unfriendly to domestic businesses?
Also why is our government unfriendly to domestic businesses?
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
The answer is found in the affidavit.
A shipment was seized for suspected violations of the Lacey Act. (paragraph 18).
The paperwork apparently did not even identify Gibson Guitars as the recipient (paragraph 20). After some investigation, it turns out the recipient was Gibson.
The paperwork listed the wrong destination (California, although the shipment was going to Nashville), and the wrong "HS" code describing the contents (paragraph 21).
So, after 5 minutes of research into the factual documentation that was provided several posts back, my incredible and admirable powers of reading English have revealed that:
Taylor, PRS, and other guitar companies were not raided because their shipments were not seized by CBP for suspected violations.
The first clue that Gibson's paperwork was incorrect could have been the fact that it listed a California destination, but was being shipped to Nashville.
Shipments to other companies were probably not seized because their paperwork appears correct, thus there is no reasonable suspicion of violations.
Let me summarize:
1) Import shipment has suspicious paperwork
2) Import shipment is seized for investigation because of suspicious paperwork
3) Investigation discovers substantial legal problems with the shipment
4) Somebody has been naughty
It's not difficult to read the affidavit.
Zoa said:
It's a little different than that. To stick with your analogy, it's as if you boarded a plane and declared you had one type of scorpion, a legal one. But in reality you had a different type of scorpion, one that was not legal.
You either:
1. Made a mistake on your paperwork. The general attitude in this case is that mistakes happen. No one wants to send anyone to jail over a typo.
2. Lied on your paperwork. If the government can prove this, charges will most likely be filed.
Either way, you're not getting your scorpion back.
bongomania
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