So the basic idea would be to still try to enforce US law when it comes to people exporting our wildlife, but allow us to ignore other countries' requests for the same respect?
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Whatever happened to the Gibson Raid outcome?
- Thread starter XtheDeadPawn
- Start date
So the basic idea would be to still try to enforce US law when it comes to people exporting our wildlife, but allow us to ignore other countries' requests for the same respect?
svtb15
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- Mar 22, 2004
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- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
How can they take your possessions. keep them from you.. without charging you because they dont have enough evidence.. That sounds like a slippery slope to a police state type of existence.. No due Process .. no charges... scarry stuff
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
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- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
I am not an expert on this .. I only picked up a sentence here and there. .But im sure that if you google rand Paul and Lacy act you may find a NEW bill... I dont use Google anymore on principals simply because of their ridiculous privacy issues.. but if you search you will find
here is ONE of many Invalid Link Removed
here is ONE of many Invalid Link Removed
Welcome to the world of customs enforcement. It happens all the time.
Remember a few years ago when there was all that panic over toothpaste made in China? The company I work for lost tens of thousands of dollars in product that customs wouldn't clear because we couldn't prove it didn't contain the offending chemical. They could never prove it did, but when it comes to import/export there is no presumption of innocence. Customs takes a "better safe than sorry" approach with what they let into the country. This is why goods can be seized without charges being filed.
"there is no presumption of innocence"
I personally have a problem with this type of thinking. If they cannot prove wrongdoing they have no right confiscating the product. Just my opinion.
I personally have a problem with this type of thinking. If they cannot prove wrongdoing they have no right confiscating the product. Just my opinion.
Blame the latitude given law enforcement from drug forfeiture laws.
Personally, I think the Feds are full of it. Charge Gibson or give the stuff back and go find real criminals.
I worked in shipping & receiving for a music store pre 9/11, & had customs hold a customers guitar (that had been sent to the vendor in Canada) at the border for two weeks over a paperwork snafu on the way back to us.
Back then, international paperwork had to be in triplicate. I can only imagine what its like today.
Too bad this kind of vigilance isn't applied to illegal immigration... but, that's another story.
Back then, international paperwork had to be in triplicate. I can only imagine what its like today.
Too bad this kind of vigilance isn't applied to illegal immigration... but, that's another story.
Well, there is presumption of innocence as far as being charged criminally.
Essentially, not having proper documentation for an imported item is akin to not having proof of insurance when you get pulled over. The cop doesn't have to let you drive off after writing you the ticket, they can make someone come pick you up and have your car towed (most don't because of the hassle). If you show up at court with proof that you had insurance at the time you were pulled over, the ticket usually gets tossed.
The same is true for anyone importing anything into the country- the burden of proof is on the importer. If Gibson couldn't prove the woods were sourced legally, the seizure is legit. If they still can't prove the woods were sourced legally, I have to question whether or not they actually were.
If I didn't really love the sound of my Gibson V this would make me want to sell it. If only I could get used to the fanned frets on my new Dingwall Combustion I would...
bassmeknik said:
Why? Because the Feds came in with a political agenda and some trumped up bs?
If this was real they would have pressed charges a long time ago.
It seems the only thing the government is really saying is that the wood may have been exported illegally from the country of origin. If they had any inkling, let alone proof that Gibson knowingly imported illegally obtained lumber it would be a much different story. The politics involving US Customs discussed in relation to this issue are probably the least confusing and unclear political issues involved. A lot of lumber gets imported from overseas countries that may not have the most stable, reliable or transparent of government bureaucracies supplying "certification", which is the issue at hand. The foreign source is the real issue. The lumber might have been harvested illegally and the certification faked, or someone bribed to certify it erroneously, or the climate of politics and/or enforcement might have changed between the time it was harvested and exported (or even after it was received, potentially). The US government can't really go after the source, so they go after the product.
It's not a perfect analogy, but if you unknowingly bought stolen goods the cops could confiscate it, but they're probably not going to press charges against you. There's a bigger and much more complicated (and convoluted) story at work here than the portion Gibson is directly involved with, they're just an unfortunate bystander. Even if the government concludes Gibson did nothing wrong and isn't trying to hurt their business, it will probably still end up doing so.
It's not a perfect analogy, but if you unknowingly bought stolen goods the cops could confiscate it, but they're probably not going to press charges against you. There's a bigger and much more complicated (and convoluted) story at work here than the portion Gibson is directly involved with, they're just an unfortunate bystander. Even if the government concludes Gibson did nothing wrong and isn't trying to hurt their business, it will probably still end up doing so.
My understanding of this latest seizure is that the wrong 'code' was put on the customs form.....a code for 'finished wood'. Since the fretboards are worked on at the US factory, somebody thinks they aren't really finished.
India has no problem with this, by the way, and no law in India was broken.
Also, you can buy freakin' unfinished Indian rosewood fretboards on the Internet from suppliers. They are completely legal. This is a paperwork issue and it's fair to suspect somebody in the government has another motive..
India has no problem with this, by the way, and no law in India was broken.
Also, you can buy freakin' unfinished Indian rosewood fretboards on the Internet from suppliers. They are completely legal. This is a paperwork issue and it's fair to suspect somebody in the government has another motive..
so this roughly translates to a personal vendetta or political motivation during an election year?
Ah! So you know what I mean about these threads getting political!
Excuse me while I try to put some distance between myself and this soon to be closed thread. Play nice!
There's a lot of conjecture here and blame is being spread without knowledge. That's as dangerous coming from an individual as from a government.
A Gibson employee off the record told me that they have a history of questionable activity in regards to violation of import laws concerning exotic or restricted woods. And I'm taming that down from the way I actually heard it. The newspaper here (where Gibson is located) reported that the wood was in containers marked as something other than what it actually was. This was supposedly "a mistake" but one that appears to have happened more than once.
I'm not going to say who is right or wrong here, but that's the closest information from knowledgable sources that I've heard so far. So is it an over zealous government or someone who wants to make money regardless of if laws are trampled or not?
All I'm saying is, don't be so quick to jump on the band wagon of saying it's the fault of the government without research and knowledge. That's just shooting at an easy target because it is so vast and filled with millions of people none of whom can argue back with you.
In general, government is a good thing - I wouldn't want to be without it. They inspect our food and water, research diseases, build roads and try to keep law and order based on laws which are established by...us. True, there are lots of unscrupulous people in the government, and change is needed imho, but that's a separate topic.
On the topic of Gibson vs the govt. in this case, clearly there are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about - probably on both sides. Best not to guess where knowledge is insufficient.
A Gibson employee off the record told me that they have a history of questionable activity in regards to violation of import laws concerning exotic or restricted woods. And I'm taming that down from the way I actually heard it. The newspaper here (where Gibson is located) reported that the wood was in containers marked as something other than what it actually was. This was supposedly "a mistake" but one that appears to have happened more than once.
I'm not going to say who is right or wrong here, but that's the closest information from knowledgable sources that I've heard so far. So is it an over zealous government or someone who wants to make money regardless of if laws are trampled or not?
All I'm saying is, don't be so quick to jump on the band wagon of saying it's the fault of the government without research and knowledge. That's just shooting at an easy target because it is so vast and filled with millions of people none of whom can argue back with you.
In general, government is a good thing - I wouldn't want to be without it. They inspect our food and water, research diseases, build roads and try to keep law and order based on laws which are established by...us. True, there are lots of unscrupulous people in the government, and change is needed imho, but that's a separate topic.
On the topic of Gibson vs the govt. in this case, clearly there are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about - probably on both sides. Best not to guess where knowledge is insufficient.
Thank you TBers for trying to shed some light on an important news story. Pretty cool that this thread has been able to stay afloat for 35 posts with out getting shut down when all the other threads were.
Ric5
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- Jan 29, 2008
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It is hard to explain what is going on without getting political.
I will try to be neutral politically and state a few things. (this should make the moderators happy)
The way I see it is our government (democrat and republican) has since at least the 70s been unfriendly to domestic businesses and made it easy for other countries to sell products here. It is hard to manufacture things in the USA and turn a profit. I really hope our government changes its attitude towards domestic businesses.
Also because of what happened at Gibson Rickenbacker has changed the wood they use on fretboards so they won't have a Gibson type raid at their factory.
