What's changed - Why more watts?

[pulse]

Can people tell me there opinion of why solid state rigs with less than 500 Watts in the 90's were the norm

and now every seems to need 1000 watts minimum

If I see old Trace Elliot SS stuff its usually 100-300 watts, 500 max or 2 x 500 watts stereo at the most extreme

 

[megadan]

It's mostly to do with ratings more so than actual "power," IMHO.

Bigger numbers sell more amps, says marketing!

No problem, says engineering, We know lots of tricky math!

 

[scottbass]

Uh, maybe because hardly anyone was making SS bass amps (or any amps, for that matter) with more than 500 watts in the 90's?

 

[eeyorebass]

I think it's a combination of things. One, more research has made for better speakers that can handle more power, and better cabs capable of lower notes, and lower notes require more power to be accurately reproduced.

I think it's also a lot of marketing in some cases. The reported power output of an amplifier can be manipulated in a lot of ways to make it look on paper like it's more powerful. But the numbers don't always equal real world performance. I'm not saying that all or even most amp makers do this, it is a minority, but I think sometimes when one dishonest maker bumps their numbers, it's easier for the honest ones to just put more power in their amps than to try and refute the other guys numbers or make the public understand that numbers don't tell the whole story, etc. Big numbers make for good press.

jeremy

 

[KJung]

Can people tell me there opinion of why solid state rigs with less than 500 Watts in the 90's were the norm

and now every seems to need 1000 watts minimum

If I see old Trace Elliot SS stuff its usually 100-300 watts, 500 max or 2 x 500 watts stereo at the most extreme

The 'norm' today seems to be right around 500 watts for SS heads. There are many, many of these 500-600 watt SS amps out there right now.

The difference is that, I assume, technology has improved. I was around back in the days of the Kustom200, the 300 watt Trace SS heads, the 150 watt Acoustics. I also get to regularly play these old heads as the come through Low Down Sound on consigment.

All I can say is things are MUCH better now. Where many of the early SS executions (like the GK800) were plenty loud, and sounded much better to many of us than the tube amp executions available back in the 70's and early 80's all the way through the mid 90's), when you compare those heads to the more modern, higher wattage heads available now (GK700, LMII, Genz750, Thunderfunk550, Ashdown500, etc., etc., etc.), the difference just hits you in the face.... much more even tone, much less compession down low, much cleaner top end... i.e., more headroom

Things are MUCH better in the SS world today than 'back in the day' IMO and IME.

 

[Fretlessboy]

Head room is a major concern. I agree with above that they do it because they can make them that powerful. Also is there a need? I say yes. Back in the day (90's) every band I played with carried a BIG p.a. and everything went through it. Now a lot of bands are running 1000 watt p.a. on a stick (and 1000 watts goes a lot farther for vocals only) and they are running bass through the system so we are on our own if we want to be present. This is just my experience. I know not too long ago a 300 watt bass amp was more than plenty. I now use a 600 watt head for most things and take a 1200 for about %20. I wish more bands would gig with big pa's so I didn't have to carry as much.

 

[pulse]

but can it really be that an LMII can out perform a Trace Elliot 300 watt amp from the 90's, aside from being really great to transport

can something in a box less than half the dimensions of its predecessors
really kick its butt?

 

[alexclaber]

but can it really be that an LMII can out perform a Trace Elliot 300 watt amp from the 90's, aside from being really great to transport

Progress. Look how cars have quantifiably improved in the last decade - 40mpg+ from a large saloon that could still hit 60mph in under 7 seconds was unheard of in the '90s. Similar thing with bass amps.

Power is cheap - enjoy!

Alex

 

[EastCoastThump]

It's not that stages have gotten any louder. Since the 60s there have been bands whose stage volumes have skated right up to the line between astonishing and medically deafening.

What the best modern high-wattage designs buy you is the ability to combine in a reasonably portable package ridiculous stage volume with better clarity, fuller dynamic range, more even (less peaky) tone, and deeper extension than the old stage rigs allowed.

 

[dancehallclasher]

Can people tell me there opinion of why solid state rigs with less than 500 Watts in the 90's were the norm

and now every seems to need 1000 watts minimum

If I see old Trace Elliot SS stuff its usually 100-300 watts, 500 max or 2 x 500 watts stereo at the most extreme

I challenge the premise here... you might have a skewed perception from reading talkbass. Go out to the local rock shows on any given weekend and I doubt you'll find many bassists using more than 500 watts.

 

[KJung]

but can it really be that an LMII can out perform a Trace Elliot 300 watt amp from the 90's, aside from being really great to transport

can something in a box less than half the dimensions of its predecessors
really kick its butt?

Ummm.... yes. That doesn't mean you will necessarily like the tone better, since the older Trace's were very mid voiced and chewy sounding and the LMII is more 'wide and flat' to my ear.

 

[Visirale]

IMO anything over 500 or so watts is overkill. If you're using 1000+ watt setup, you should be using PA support. If you don't have it, you need it. Your stage volume is going to be insane, and the mix is not going to sound good.

 

[KJung]

IMO anything over 500 or so watts is overkill. If you're using 1000+ watt setup, you should be using PA support. If you don't have it, you need it. Your stage volume is going to be insane, and the mix is not going to sound good.

This is, IMO, a gross overgeneralization. Remember, wattage is just one input into volume. If you are using a low SPL cab (i.e. a cab tuned very low with lots of deep bass response), an honestly rated 1000 watt head is not going to be as loud as an honestly rated 500 watt head into a more normal, mid voiced, higher SPL cab.

Also, remember, doubling the wattage of an amp, all other things being equal, does impact the volume significantly, but not as much as you might think (the oft quoted +3db). What it does do, besides push lower SPL cabs, is also provide the headroom before clipping for aggressive playing styles that still require a clean, undistorted tone (like slap style playing). A higher wattage amp (all other things being equal again) will result in a much more open, deeper, less compressed low end for these types of playing styles.

In general, I agree with you, but there are many situations where a very powerful amp will make a big difference, and it has very little to do with overall volume.

IMO and IME. I am lucky enough to enjoy the more mid presence and tighter low end of these higher SPL type cabs, so I never get close to running out of juice with a modern 500 watt or so SS amp. However, if I used cabs like the Acme's or the older Bergantino HT's or EA VL's, it would be a different story.

 

[Visirale]

This is, IMO, a gross overgeneralization. Remember, wattage is just one input into volume. If you are using a low SPL cab (i.e. a cab tuned very low with lots of deep bass response), an honestly rated 1000 watt head is not going to be as loud as an honestly rated 500 watt head into a more normal, mid voiced, higher SPL cab.

Also, remember, doubling the wattage of an amp, all other things being equal, does impact the volume significantly, but not as much as you might think (the oft quoted +3db). What it does do, besides push lower SPL cabs, is also provide the headroom before clipping for aggressive playing styles that still require a clean, undistorted tone (like slap style playing). A higher wattage amp (all other things being equal again) will result in a much more open, deeper, less compressed low end for these types of playing styles.

In general, I agree with you, but there are many situations where a very powerful amp will make a big difference, and it has very little to do with overall volume.

IMO and IME. I am lucky enough to enjoy the more mid presence and tighter low end of these higher SPL type cabs, so I never get close to running out of juice with a modern 500 watt or so SS amp. However, if I used cabs like the Acme's or the older Bergantino HT's or EA VL's, it would be a different story.

I agree. I wasn't talking about the hifi gear. I was thinking of the countless rock bands I've seen using SVT-4,5,6,8 (whatever they're up to now). People using run-of-the-mill cabs with huge amounts of power. Most all of these are well beyond the need of a band. I have found that sticking to the "thrice the number of guitar amp watts in the band" rule to work out fine...

 

[wingnut]

Remember back in the day when a 500cc motorcycle was friggin' HUGE! Now they are thought of as beginner bikes. I don't know, my old Triumph Bonneville would easily hit 135mph and it was a little 650cc. The new bonnevilles are 865cc and they top out at about 120mph. The large cc bikes of say 1200cc can and do hit 170mph, but if you think about it that's double the cc's for a measly 40mph gain... I have some older vintage amps and the new one's do totally spank them head to head. I compared my old accoustic 270 to my then new GK800RB and you know what happened...the GK kicked it's old butt! I think technology has gotten to the point where speakers are a lot more efficient and can handle a lot more watts without comming apart. As speakers improve, so do amps and vice versa. You can take this even a step further. Find an old fender bassman and compare it to a new little practice amp ei: peavy, trace elliott, ampeg, most of the little "practice" amps are louder.

 

[pulse]

Ummm.... yes. That doesn't mean you will necessarily like the tone better, since the older Trace's were very mid voiced and chewy sounding and the LMII is more 'wide and flat' to my ear.

please define chewy sounding

can anyone comment on what a couple of store reps told me when I asked about modern light weight portable designs:

"you need big transformers to make big bass" - is there any truth in this?

I am actually considering an LMII or other mobile head for my SHRO 1212L at the mo.

 

[JonathanD]

can anyone comment on what a couple of store reps told me when I asked about modern light weight portable designs:

"you need big transformers to make big bass" - is there any truth in this?

thats like

asking a man who rases horses how to travel...

You need horses to move fast,

And if you ask typewriter salesman
or You have to have typewriter to be a real writer.

if a store doesn't sell it...they probably will say it is not as good as what they sell...because that makes them money and because they may believe what they are saying.

 

[alexclaber]

"you need big transformers to make big bass" - is there any truth in this?

No, you need a power supply with sufficient current capacity to handle high demand and difficult (reactive) loads. If it's a switch mode power supply then you can do this with a remarkably small and light transformer. And if it isn't an SMPS but is a more efficient power amp class (G, H, D) then you can use a smaller than expected transformer. And an SMPS and efficient power amp class and you can go really tiny.

Alex

 

[pulse]

No, you need a power supply with sufficient current capacity to handle high demand and difficult (reactive) loads. If it's a switch mode power supply then you can do this with a remarkably small and light transformer. And if it isn't an SMPS but is a more efficient power amp class (G, H, D) then you can use a smaller than expected transformer. And an SMPS and efficient power amp class and you can go really tiny.

Alex

thanks for that very informative answer

 

[KJung]

please define chewy sounding

can anyone comment on what a couple of store reps told me when I asked about modern light weight portable designs:

"you need big transformers to make big bass" - is there any truth in this?

I am actually considering an LMII or other mobile head for my SHRO 1212L at the mo.

I owned the 300 watt 12 band head many years ago, and recently played the 12 band preamp (old model) at Low Down Sound. By 'chewy', I guess I mean LOTs of mid mids, and a more tight, low mid sort of voicing than deep bass. The upper end of those amps was also rather sweet versus 'hi fi' to my ear. Nice stuff... very punchy and tight. That 'scoop' button, of course, widened the tone, but in a negative way... taking way too much mid mids out for my taste.

Anyway, there are a lot of very small, powerful amps out there... the AI Focus... which is also a touch 'chewy'... warm, lots of mids, polite upper treble, the Genz 6.0... tight, punchy, with some tube character, the LMII... even, quick, wide, warm with plenty of deep bass and sizzle up top if you want it, and the MB F1... tight low end, aggressive and quick in the mids and treble (my personal favorite).

My guess is the AI Clarus would be closest to the old Trace SS in tone, with the AI Focus having similar tone but LOT's more volume... again, I'm not saying they sound the same, but I hear them in the same 'tone univers'... more warm and mid punchy than, for example, wide, crisp and/or hi fi.

IMO there... I have not done the exact A/Bing of the SS trace heads and these micro's... just based on indirect comparisons and memory of many gigs with the old Trace back in the day!

Edit:... the LMII is a NICE matchup with the 1212L... the EQ is voiced nicely to 'tame' the uber mid punch of that cab, and extend the low end a bit IMO.