What's On Your Workbench?

[TerribleTim68]

For those of you with drum sanders, what's your thoughts on size? I'm considering getting a smaller unit for my home. I have access to the supermax 25 (photo above) but it is not at my house. It's a solid hour and a half drive, so not something I can just run and do. What's the smallest unit you'd consider?

I assume if you're sanding bookmatched body parts, you could probably get by with a little 10" unit, no? Or is this just a waste of time?

 

[BishopJP]

I don't have one, yet, however...

As far as instrument building goes, a 10" unit would allow you to sand the book-matched parts before you glue them up. I have been wanting a sander large enough to send the entire bass/guitar body through, after it is glued up. Unless it's open on one side and you can pass it through, turn it, send it through again?

My $.02,FWIW.

 

[Gary_M]

For those of you with drum sanders, what's your thoughts on size? I'm considering getting a smaller unit for my home. I have access to the supermax 25 (photo above) but it is not at my house. It's a solid hour and a half drive, so not something I can just run and do. What's the smallest unit you'd consider?

I assume if you're sanding bookmatched body parts, you could probably get by with a little 10" unit, no? Or is this just a waste of time?

I have the Supermax 19-38. I looked at drum sanders for a long time and nearly talked myself into a smaller unit. In that price range, they're all pretty much open ended, so you can sand half, flip it, and sand the other half. I decided against that and got one that would not only handle guitar bodies, but most cabinet doors of any furniture that I would make. I can say that I'm glad I went bigger, for sure.

A drum sander is a tool that you need to use slowly. For example, every time that I bring the thickness adjustment down, I run the piece through several times to let it "catch up". This is especially true with harder woods. It helps to keep everything flat and square. My point is this; I don't want to have to keep track of that while also flipping things in and out of a narrow sander.

If your budget allows, go bigger, you will not regret it.

 

[TerribleTim68]

@SlingBlader I've been curious of the open end models and that whole "flip it around" method. Does that really work? Don't you end up with an odd sanding "stripe" down the middle where they never fully come together at the same "height"?

FWIW, I'm looking at a local used unit, it's a Jet 1020, open end model. My budget says "How about a McDonald's burger", so that's not really the conversation.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

For those of you with drum sanders, what's your thoughts on size? I'm considering getting a smaller unit for my home. I have access to the supermax 25 (photo above) but it is not at my house. It's a solid hour and a half drive, so not something I can just run and do. What's the smallest unit you'd consider?

I assume if you're sanding bookmatched body parts, you could probably get by with a little 10" unit, no? Or is this just a waste of time?

We probably should start a thread here on Luthier's Corner just about Drum Sanders. Everybody wants one, many of us have them, and some of us have spent years fighting with them.

Quick summary of my own experience:

Here in the Secret Underground Lab, we've had two of the 16-32 open-sided drum sanders, one Performax and one Jet. All kinds of problems; never got them working acceptably. We sold them both.

Mike Lipe bought a Grizzly 18" double drum sander. I believe it's been discontinued, but it's similar to their current 16" G1079R model. Mike and I fought with it initially, made some modifications, and eventually got it running reasonably well. After Mike died, Keith Horne ended up with it, and he still uses it today. Some trouble, but it works.

I have a 1980's Kuster 24" double drum sander which I bought used about 15 years ago. It's supposed to be one of the best drum sanders made; all the other guys copied their design. Lots of problems with it. A few years back, I put some real effort into trying to figure it out and make it into a useful machine. Frustration. I haven't run it in several years. But I still have it, and have hopes of eventually making it work. I have a few new ideas on modifications which may fix it. But I haven't gotten around to it; other machine priorities.

Summary: Drum sanders sure look cool in the pictures. But there's a reason why you see so many of them for sale on CraigsList.

 

[dwizum]

I have the 10" Jet, the 10-20 model. I stuck with a small one mostly because of space constraints, I literally don't have room for anything bigger than this. To be sure, a bigger unit would be nicer in a lot of ways, but I have been more than pleased with the performance of this unit. I've only owned it for a little over a year but I have put a ton of material through it for guitars, basses, and tops/backs/sides for ukes (I've completed about 18 instruments since buying it). I use it all the time, in ways that I could never have predicted.

In summary, I've never found myself thinking "wow I wish I'd bought a bigger sander."

 

[TerribleTim68]

I have the 10" Jet, the 10-20 model. I stuck with a small one mostly because of space constraints, I literally don't have room for anything bigger than this. To be sure, a bigger unit would be nicer in a lot of ways, but I have been more than pleased with the performance of this unit. I've only owned it for a little over a year but I have put a ton of material through it for guitars, basses, and tops/backs/sides for ukes (I've completed about 18 instruments since buying it). I use it all the time, in ways that I could never have predicted.

In summary, I've never found myself thinking "wow I wish I'd bought a bigger sander."

Interesting Dwizum. I assume you can just feed a full Uke thru there even after it's completed, no?

 

[dwizum]

Makes sasnding between coats of finish real easy!

 

[Bruce Johnson]

To me, the big lesson about drum sanders is: It's not a planer! It's not the machine to use to reduce the thickness of a board by any substantial amount. That's a job for a planer or a wide belt sander or a router planer rig. A drum sander is made to put a smooth, evenly-sanded surface on a board that's already nearly flat and at final thickness. Thinning a board down with a drum sander, even a big one like mine, involves extensive patience and occasional profanity.

 

[Dadagoboi]

We probably should start a thread here on Luthier's Corner just about Drum Sanders. Everybody wants one, many of us have them, and some of us have spent years fighting with them.

Quick summary of my own experience:

Here in the Secret Underground Lab, we've had two of the 16-32 open-sided drum sanders, one Performax and one Jet. All kinds of problems; never got them working acceptably. We sold them both.

Mike Lipe bought a Grizzly 18" double drum sander. I believe it's been discontinued, but it's similar to their current 16" G1079R model. Mike and I fought with it initially, made some modifications, and eventually got it running reasonably well. After Mike died, Keith Horne ended up with it, and he still uses it today. Some trouble, but it works.

I have a 1980's Kuster 24" double drum sander which I bought used about 15 years ago. It's supposed to be one of the best drum sanders made; all the other guys copied their design. Lots of problems with it. A few years back, I put some real effort into trying to figure it out and make it into a useful machine. Frustration. I haven't run it in several years. But I still have it, and have hopes of eventually making it work. I have a few new ideas on modifications which may fix it. But I haven't gotten around to it; other machine priorities.

Summary: Drum sanders sure look cool in the pictures. But there's a reason why you see so many of them for sale on CraigsList.

I have a similar view of low end drum sanders.

I went to the '91(or so) Atlanta woodworking tradeshow where Performax introduced their double drum sander. I made the mistake of buying one. It never produced good results for me no matter what I did. Later that year I bought about $40K of used panel processing machines: EMA 10 ft sliding panel saw, Holzer Edge bander, SCMI three head 63 spindle boring machine, etc. The vendor threw in an ancient 3 phase 7-1/2 hp 18x36 stationary belt sander. Weighed about 100lbs per HP. I nursed the beast back to life and it handled anything we threw at it. The Performax gathered dust in a corner.

 

[Gary_M]

@SlingBlader I've been curious of the open end models and that whole "flip it around" method. Does that really work? Don't you end up with an odd sanding "stripe" down the middle where they never fully come together at the same "height"?

FWIW, I'm looking at a local used unit, it's a Jet 1020, open end model. My budget says "How about a McDonald's burger", so that's not really the conversation.

In a nutshell, yes, the flip it around method does work. BUT, the key is to have a properly set up machine before you even attempt it.

The comments above very much reflect what I heard while researching this. Some people have good luck with them, others don't care for them at all. Let's start with this one simple truth; an open ended drum sander is a compromise right out of the gate. It is inherently less rigid than a two post unit (close ended), no argument about that. But the trade-off is the cost. The four post (or close-ended) units are generally 2x the cost of the open-ended units and tend to take up more floor space.

I think the other factor to keep in mind is the mentality of why I own one. No, it isn't a dedicated "thicknessing" machine in the traditional sense, nor is it great at finish sanding. What it IS great for is bringing figured woods (I use it for non-figured woods as well) and glued-up panels to near final thickness. No, I'm not bringing 5/8" material down to 1/4" with this tool... That is not what it is for.

I carefully bring my materials down as close to my target thickness as I can while allowing for tear out... That can be with my lunch box planer, hand planes, band saw, etc. The drum sander is the tool to bring it to the final 3/32" to 1/16". That is usually enough to get rid of blade marks, tear-out and an uneven glue seam.

They are also great at getting the work piece very flat. Again, the machine must be set up properly and you have to let the workpiece "catch up" in between adjustments. I also flip pieces 180 degrees on every pass to minimize any irregularity in the machine setup. Is it accurate to .001 across a 16" wide panel? Probably not, but I build guitars out of wood, I'm not machining tool steel here.

No, it isn't fast, and no, you don't use them to hog off 1/4" of material; but for the price I don't know what other tool could do the job as accurately. Try to flatten a 1/8" thick bookmatched redwood burl guitar top (which is very soft) or a 1/4" bookmatched ziricote top (which is very hard) with no tear-out.

You have to put yourself in a different mindset... go to your Zen place, LOL. Take your time with a well adjusted machine and have realistic expectations... you will wonder how you got by without one.

Now, having said all of that, do you NEED one? To me, it's a bit of a luxury tool, and was purchased after I had nearly every other tool that I wanted. It's not quite a one-trick-pony, but it's close... still, it's a pretty dang good trick.

 

[BishopJP]

@SlingBlader thanks for that deep-dive! I have been wanting a drum/thickness sander for a while but have been put off by the prices! As you stated, I'm not looking to replace my planer with a sander, but I do want to be able to flatten guitar tops after glue-up instead of using a router jig. However, I have been told many times that a one-sided drum sander does not have the necessary accuracy.

 

[Gary_M]

@SlingBlader thanks for that deep-dive! I have been wanting a drum/thickness sander for a while but have been put off by the prices! As you stated, I'm not looking to replace my planer with a sander, but I do want to be able to flatten guitar tops after glue-up instead of using a router jig. However, I have been told many times that a one-sided drum sander does not have the necessary accuracy.

Sure! I just went back and corrected a few typos. Apparently I can't spell "compromise"... must be a character flaw on my part.

It's one of those machines that you have to work with the idiosyncrasies, not fight against them. Oh, I also forgot to mention that I also use my drum sander to process fretboards and headstock overlays, it's great for batching out that sort of work.

 

[Big B.]

We probably should start a thread here on Luthier's Corner just about Drum Sanders. Everybody wants one, many of us have them, and some of us have spent years fighting with them.

Quick summary of my own experience:

Here in the Secret Underground Lab, we've had two of the 16-32 open-sided drum sanders, one Performax and one Jet. All kinds of problems; never got them working acceptably. We sold them both.

Mike Lipe bought a Grizzly 18" double drum sander. I believe it's been discontinued, but it's similar to their current 16" G1079R model. Mike and I fought with it initially, made some modifications, and eventually got it running reasonably well. After Mike died, Keith Horne ended up with it, and he still uses it today. Some trouble, but it works.

I have a 1980's Kuster 24" double drum sander which I bought used about 15 years ago. It's supposed to be one of the best drum sanders made; all the other guys copied their design. Lots of problems with it. A few years back, I put some real effort into trying to figure it out and make it into a useful machine. Frustration. I haven't run it in several years. But I still have it, and have hopes of eventually making it work. I have a few new ideas on modifications which may fix it. But I haven't gotten around to it; other machine priorities.

Summary: Drum sanders sure look cool in the pictures. But there's a reason why you see so many of them for sale on CraigsList.

Out of curiosity are these machines you are referring to wide belt sanders or actual drum sanders where the paper is applied to the drum itself?

My experience with small consumer designed drum sanders is that they are usually okay for small jobs like guitar parts as long as you aren't using them for long periods of time. I've known a few woodshops with production sized drum sanders (not wide belt sanders) and they were a nightmare for those guys that owned them. The drums were metal and since the adhesive backed paper was attached directly the drum would start building up heat fairly quickly. They would have to stop fairly often to keep the metal drum from getting too hot and warping. I've always been lucky enough to work in shops with decent wide belt sanders and I'm totally spoiled. If I ever quit the job completely and take on building full time I'll have to take out a loan and buy a decent, small wide belt sander for myself to work the way I like to. Talk about being spoiled, our current machine has 3 separate belts 80, 150, and 220 and is 52" wide.

Unfortunately a decent wide belt sander is going to require a good sized air compressor to keep the belts tensioned and a fairly powerful dust collector so for many small shops they are impractical.

 

[Beej]

Talk about being spoiled, our current machine has 3 separate belts 80, 150, and 220 and is 52" wide.

 

[TerribleTim68]

So, just for the record. I was never looking at a drum sander as a thinckness-ing device. I have a lunchbox planer that does that. I'm looking at something that can do that final cleanup after the lunchbox does its job. I kinda feel like everybody thought I was trying to do something it isn't made for. Not the case, never was.

Again, I have access to a Performax 25x2 (pictured earlier in this thread, previous page I think, after I got it up and running again), but it is a solid hour and a half drive to go use it. I was willing to spend the $50 on a new belt for it, even though it doesn't belong to me. Partly because when I do go use it, it's really sweet. Partly because the person who does own it let's me use his entire cabinet shop and all the fancy tools in there any time I want, without any monetary compensation. A $50 belt for his sander seemed like a nice gesture. The Performax is amazing because it has 2 drums, so I set it up with a course grit on the front drum and a finer grit on the back drum, so when you send a piece through it sands it twice in one shot and comes out crazy smooth. But, it's 208 volt / 30 amp.....and massive.....and not at my house. Thus my looking at a smaller unit that I could keep at home for more than just guitar bodies, but also use for other woodworking projects, even making segmented turning rings for woodturning projects.

After chatting with the seller of this particular unit I was looking at, I have chose to pass. He's about $200 higher than I'd like to be and has no desire to negotiate -

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Out of curiosity are these machines you are referring to wide belt sanders or actual drum sanders where the paper is applied to the drum itself?

Hey Big B.;

I'm talking about drum sanders here. With the spiral-wrap paper around aluminum drums. I've had experience with four of them over the years; one of them is mine and I still own it. Overall, they are fussy machines that are difficult to get working correctly. Keith has got the Grizzly working well enough, with some modifications and technique, that he uses it regularly to flatten out thin figured wood tops for his guitars. My big Kuster has been frustrating. I spend 2 hours messing with it, trying to get it dialed in, for every half hour of productive work done. And then an hour cleaning up after it. It just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble. I haven't completely given up on it, but I don't have a lot of enthusiasm to keep putting time into it.

Wide belt sanders are a whole different story. I'd love to have one, but I can't afford it. Rob Allen has one, a fairly small 18" one, I think it's a Nikon? It cost about $10K back in the '90's, and the belts are about $80 each. But it works very well. It will take his glued top boards down in thickness and make them flat and smooth in a few minutes each. And it's generally very reliable. A few years back, I helped him re-plumb the pneumatic system on it, when it started giving a few problems. A good productive machine, worth the money, if you need to make up a lot of thin thicknessed boards.

Large cabinet shops have the 24"-36" wide belt sanders, some with multiple heads or built-in planer heads. They will crank out flat boards all day. But those are $100K machines. Beyond the scope of us little Luthiers.

 

[Big B.]

Hey Big B.;

I'm talking about drum sanders here. With the spiral-wrap paper around aluminum drums. I've had experience with four of them over the years; one of them is mine and I still own it. Overall, they are fussy machines that are difficult to get working correctly. Keith has got the Grizzly working well enough, with some modifications and technique, that he uses it regularly to flatten out thin figured wood tops for his guitars. My big Kuster has been frustrating. I spend 2 hours messing with it, trying to get it dialed in, for every half hour of productive work done. And then an hour cleaning up after it. It just doesn't seem to be worth the trouble. I haven't completely given up on it, but I don't have a lot of enthusiasm to keep putting time into it.

Wide belt sanders are a whole different story. I'd love to have one, but I can't afford it. Rob Allen has one, a fairly small 18" one, I think it's a Nikon? It cost about $10K back in the '90's, and the belts are about $80 each. But it works very well. It will take his glued top boards down in thickness and make them flat and smooth in a few minutes each. And it's generally very reliable. A few years back, I helped him re-plumb the pneumatic system on it, when it started giving a few problems. A good productive machine, worth the money, if you need to make up a lot of thin thicknessed boards.

Large cabinet shops have the 24"-36" wide belt sanders, some with multiple heads or built-in planer heads. They will crank out flat boards all day. But those are $100K machines. Beyond the scope of us little Luthiers.

So it sounds like you can get what you need for guitars out of your drum sander with a little work. The guys I know were using them for cabinetry and millwork which meant longer running times and more heat buildup. I had a 12" baby drum sander from Grizzly for a while but it was not quite enough for my needs. Like I said, most of my experience has been working with wide belt sanders so I dont have much experience with the varius sizes of drum sanders. I've looked at the open ended machines like the Jet but I feel like I'd never really be happy with one.

What are the thickness limitations on a decent drum sander? Can you thin parts down to less than 1/16" like I can with a wide belt sander?

 

[dwizum]

I generally thin acoustic tops, backs and sides down to around 1/16" on my tiny little Jet drum sander and it does it very well. I've done a couple pieces down to probably .04" to do laminated panels.

A lot of bigger drum sanders list 1/8" as a minimum thickness but I'm sure there are ways around that (put your workpiece on a carrier or something).

 

[Big B.]

So it sounds like you can get what you need for guitars out of your drum sander with a little work. The guys I know were using them for cabinetry and millwork which meant longer running times and more heat buildup. I had a 12" baby drum sander from Grizzly for a while but it was not quite enough for my needs. Like I said, most of my experience has been working with wide belt sanders so I dont have much experience with the varius sizes of drum sanders. I've looked at the open ended machines like the Jet but I feel like I'd never really be happy with one.

What are the thickness limitations on a decent drum sander? Can you thin parts down to less than 1/16" like I can with a wide belt sander?

There are a couple of Grizzly models I've been keeping my eye on. There's an open ended model with a 15" belt that around 6,500$ and a close end 18" model with a digital input pad for around 8,000$.

Used wide belt machines are a real crap shoot and can end up costing lots of down time, and as you say most wide belt machines are built for cabinet shops and have larger belts. The 15-18" range of these machines combined with the 5 hp motor are pretty perfect for guitar makers.