What's wrong with 2023 audiences?

[Pacman]

I also see cover bands kind of dying off and tribute bands are filling the void.
Instead of one cover band half-assing 4 hours worth of songs that have no reason to be played together, a few tribute bands playing a few band's material exceptionally well for the same amount of time seems to be much more popular anymore

You and I are in the same market, and virtually the only bands I know making ANY kind of money are cover bands, or the few country bands that do a maximum of 50/50 cover to originals.

 

[Jason Sypher]

We were cancelled twice, albeit with some notice, on a weekly jam recently when the Dallas Stars were in 2nd, and then divisional rounds of the NHL playoffs. Before that, we were told to stop playing during a prior playoff game so the 4 people at the bar could watch the game, while the 25 or so people who were there for the jam were completely sidelined. I looked across the room and noticed drinks and food on all but a couple tables, so these were paying customers.

And while I don't know enough about hockey tactics and strategies to fully follow it, I enjoy watching, and count myself a fan of other sports.

Problem is these cancellations reveal a bigger issue, that live music is seen as an after-thought. As evidence, the venue does not participate in live music promotion, there are no mentions on their website or on social networking.

I don't mind doing social network promo - I'd do it anyway because we work for both a guarantee and tips, and the more people that show up, the fuller the tip jar.

IME the venue really should be seen as a more-than-willing participant & live music destination on nights it's supposed to be scheduled; Cultivating that impression should include both promotion and consistency.

While the venue's content to have us play there, live music fans in our area are more inclined to go places where they feel truly welcome by the venue.

EDIT: Not whining. We already know what needs to happen here; We're looking to move.

Audiences need to be told or shown how to react to a band from the venue. So much is riding on how the venue acts towards the music and the band. If live music is the priority, turn off the tv during the music. I know a lot of venues out there in the suburbs can't imagine doing that but if you really want the music to become a scene you have to show some faith and support in your programming. Playing under a big screen tv as we have all done at some time or another is completely useless. People, probably ourselves included, cannot turn away from a screen no matter how stupid the content. So that's one thing. Don't play gigs that put you under a screen. I have been lucky enough to start some venues ventures into live music. I told them specifically how to make it work and how it will likely fail. It worked every time. No screens during music. Bartenders show an active role in announcing the music before each set showing patrons that the live music is there because they love it and they are lucky to have it.

 

[Marko 1]

Audiences need to be told or shown how to react to a band from the venue. So much is riding on how the venue acts towards the music and the band. If live music is the priority, turn off the tv during the music. I know a lot of venues out there in the suburbs can't imagine doing that but if you really want the music to become a scene you have to show some faith and support in your programming. Playing under a big screen tv as we have all done at some time or another is completely useless. People, probably ourselves included, cannot turn away from a screen no matter how stupid the content. So that's one thing. Don't play gigs that put you under a screen. I have been lucky enough to start some venues ventures into live music. I told them specifically how to make it work and how it will likely fail. It worked every time. No screens during music. Bartenders show an active role in announcing the music before each set showing patrons that the live music is there because they love it and they are lucky to have it.

I can't even imagine telling the venue how to run their business, or literally force those in the crowd to focus where I want them to focus.

There are too many gigs where the band is not the main/only focus, we're not rock stars doing concerts.

I'm doing two car-centered events this year; am I supposed to not play them, or tell them to get rid of the cars?

If it's literally background music, or music just to support something in the theatrical context, is that not a legitimate gig for musicians?

If I'm payed to play under a big TV screen, that's what I'm gonna do, full energy and a smile (or whatever weird face I might make)

I'm not going to disappoint whoever's paying, and those who do focus on the band, however many or few that might be.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I can't even imagine telling the venue how to run their business, or literally force those in the crowd to focus where I want them to focus.

There are too many gigs where the band is not the main/only focus, we're not rock stars doing concerts.

I'm doing two car-centered events this year; am I supposed to not play it, or tell them to get rid of the cars?

If it's literally background music, or music just to support something in the theatrical context, is that not a legitimate gig for musicians?

If I'm payed to play under a big TV screen, that's what I'm gonna do, full energy and a smile (or whatever weird face I might make)

I'm not going to disappoint whoever's paying, and those who do focus on the band, however many or few that might be.

I never told anyone how to run their business nor had to force a crowd to do anything, but I have engaged with the management or anyone who is hiring regarding how to get the most out of what my groups have to offer. I did this in New Orleans and also the Algonquin, Tramps and The Dead Rabbit in New York. My experience is that the venues wanted the music to succeed as much as the musicians. I never went to anyone without having a band fully worthy of an audience. Usually, I would tell them, you’re going to get the most out of the group the more attention is paid. The quieter the room, the more we can show you what we can do, the more the audience gets to see how the music is made, and can be more a part of it. This usually ended up in residencies, or every Tuesday night kind of situations where the band and the club could collaborate to build an audience. Within two months we would regularly pack the place with people who came JUST TO SEE THE BAND. That creates an entirely different relationship where everyone wins. The venue is proud to have us and we are happy to be there. The venue and the bartenders played a key roll in this being successful. If I booked my band and said “Give me your slowest night of the week for two months straight and I’ll give you a packed house at the end of two months” they’d always take it. Then I’d say “ok here’s what I need from you…” and off we’d go.

 

[Marko 1]

I never told anyone how to run their business nor had to force a crowd to do anything, but I have engaged with the management or anyone who is hiring regarding how to get the most out of what my groups have to offer. I did this in New Orleans and also the Algonquin, Tramps and The Dead Rabbit in New York. My experience is that the venues wanted the music to succeed as much as the musicians. I never went to anyone without having a band fully worthy of an audience. Usually, I would tell them, you’re going to get the most out of the group the more attention is paid. The quieter the room, the more we can show you what we can do, the more the audience gets to see how the music is made, and can be more a part of it. This usually ended up in residencies, or every Tuesday night kind of situations where the band and the club could collaborate to build an audience. Within two months we would regularly pack the place with people who came JUST TO SEE THE BAND. That creates an entirely different relationship where everyone wins. The venue is proud to have us and we are happy to be there. The venue and the bartenders played a key roll in this being successful. If I booked my band and said “Give me your slowest night of the week for two months straight and I’ll give you a packed house at the end of two months” they’d always take it. Then I’d say “ok here’s what I need from you…” and off we’d go.

You did specify in your post "If music is the priority", so fair enough.

 

[LBS-bass]

I can't even imagine telling the venue how to run their business, or literally force those in the crowd to focus where I want them to focus.

There are too many gigs where the band is not the main/only focus, we're not rock stars doing concerts.

I'm doing two car-centered events this year; am I supposed to not play them, or tell them to get rid of the cars?

If it's literally background music, or music just to support something in the theatrical context, is that not a legitimate gig for musicians?

If I'm payed to play under a big TV screen, that's what I'm gonna do, full energy and a smile (or whatever weird face I might make)

I'm not going to disappoint whoever's paying, and those who do focus on the band, however many or few that might be.

Yep. This is why I said that adjusting expectations is most important here. We can't expect to be the center of attention when we are actually window dressing or wallpaper.

 

[51PRI]

I never told anyone how to run their business nor had to force a crowd to do anything, but I have engaged with the management or anyone who is hiring regarding how to get the most out of what my groups have to offer. I did this in New Orleans and also the Algonquin, Tramps and The Dead Rabbit in New York. My experience is that the venues wanted the music to succeed as much as the musicians. I never went to anyone without having a band fully worthy of an audience. Usually, I would tell them, you’re going to get the most out of the group the more attention is paid. The quieter the room, the more we can show you what we can do, the more the audience gets to see how the music is made, and can be more a part of it. This usually ended up in residencies, or every Tuesday night kind of situations where the band and the club could collaborate to build an audience. Within two months we would regularly pack the place with people who came JUST TO SEE THE BAND. That creates an entirely different relationship where everyone wins. The venue is proud to have us and we are happy to be there. The venue and the bartenders played a key roll in this being successful. If I booked my band and said “Give me your slowest night of the week for two months straight and I’ll give you a packed house at the end of two months” they’d always take it. Then I’d say “ok here’s what I need from you…” and off we’d go.

Are you Jake Taffer?

 

[Pocket Dave]

Audiences need to be told or shown how to react to a band from the venue. So much is riding on how the venue acts towards the music and the band. If live music is the priority, turn off the tv during the music. I know a lot of venues out there in the suburbs can't imagine doing that but if you really want the music to become a scene you have to show some faith and support in your programming. Playing under a big screen tv as we have all done at some time or another is completely useless. People, probably ourselves included, cannot turn away from a screen no matter how stupid the content. So that's one thing. Don't play gigs that put you under a screen. I have been lucky enough to start some venues ventures into live music. I told them specifically how to make it work and how it will likely fail. It worked every time. No screens during music. Bartenders show an active role in announcing the music before each set showing patrons that the live music is there because they love it and they are lucky to have it.

Too many shades of gray to unpack here so I'll try to hit the high level.

Many venues are what I call mixed-use. They're large rooms with multiple areas to accommodate different interests, meeting up to socialize and drink being interest #1 in most bars. Somewhere on that list is watching sports with friends on the big screen, or maybe just watching sports with other people. As long as live music fans are given their own area, I have no problem with big screens being on other walls.

Just not on a wall directly over or behind the band stand/stage. Personally, I'll turn those off or unplug them, opting to apologize rather than ask permission. Fortunately, that is not an issue in any places I'm currently working.

Ideal situation between a band and venue is working together as a mutually beneficial partnership. Sometimes bands have to endure a proof-of-concept period, which takes degrees of perseverance and patience. I'd say it takes salesmanship, though that word has too many negative connotations. Rather, it takes skillfully & tactfully guiding a venue owner toward doing what's best for his/her business. I've found IME that being forceful, having high demands, etc. is counterintuitive. Sitting down with and owner and have an open discussion about what's going to work best for the venue has a much higher chance of working to this end than dealing with an absentee owner. And sometimes it has a higher chance of revealing that maybe the venue owner shouldn't be having live music, maybe it's just not a good enough fit for their sense of direction. My job is never to tell an owner what to do with his/her business.

I'd rather work than not, though there are limits to what I'll tolerate over the long haul. Jury's still out on my Thursday night thing, and now that it's landed in my lap to run it, I've got some different things to try. Meanwhile, we keep an open mind to other venues.

 

[Sam Evans]

I've noticed, utterly anecdotally, that small jazz combos seem to do well in my neck of the woods. They provide good music for the folks who come out specifically to hear it, but also serve as background music for the dinner crowd. It doesn't hurt that they can play at reasonable volumes too.

 

[Pocket Dave]

I've noticed, utterly anecdotally, that small jazz combos seem to do well in my neck of the woods. They provide good music for the folks who come out specifically to hear it, but also serve as background music for the dinner crowd. It doesn't hurt that they can play at reasonable volumes too.

Man, the volume thing is a huge factor IME. You want to lose the kind of audience that spends money at venues? Play too loud.

 

[pepj]

.......... but I have engaged with the management or anyone who is hiring regarding how to get the most out of what my groups have to offer....... My experience is that the venues wanted the music to succeed as much as the musicians.

I tend to target certain places that are big enough for the band playing area and have a decent rosta.

That tells me an awful lot.

Then I double check what sort of night the venue wants. I want a discerning venue and audience.
If our expectations are close, we will strike a deal.

Its really just a question of being realistic and good bands don't come cheap. Venues that undercut in this regard, undercut elsewhere and don't work as top places to play. Its a race to the bottom..

 

[51PRI]

Man, the volume thing is a huge factor IME. You want to lose the kind of audience that spends money at venues? Play too loud.

I always watch the audience. If I see them talking casually and not having to lean over or shout at each other I know that we're not too loud.

I tend to target certain places that are big enough for the band playing area and have a decent rosta.

That tells me an awful lot.

Then I double check what sort of night the venue wants. I want a discerning venue and audience.
If our expectations are close, we will strike a deal......

You're lucky that you can be so discriminating in your gig choices. You must have a lot of different kinds of venues from which to choose. If we were to only take gigs from only places that were perfect for us we wouldn't take very many gigs, maybe not any.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I tend to target certain places that are big enough for the band playing area and have a decent rosta.

That tells me an awful lot.

Then I double check what sort of night the venue wants. I want a discerning venue and audience.
If our expectations are close, we will strike a deal.

Its really just a question of being realistic and good bands don't come cheap. Venues that undercut in this regard, undercut elsewhere and don't work as top places to play. Its a race to the bottom..

As crazy as this is going to sound, I find the venues that I want to play and then go from there. Most people maybe go at it from the other direction, auditioning and trying to get the gig. For me it’s the opposite I’m auditioning THEM! Now that’s not to say I haven’t played some low ass gigs, but even those, unless I’m flat broke, I generally choose where I’m going to play. I’d almost rather just busk than play a lame bar. At least busking is in my control. Another odd tidbit is that I often got gigs that were all acoustic! For years I did not want to play through an amp at all. I found clubs that were down with creating listening spaces making music the focus. I’m shaking my head as I write this, it must seem nuts to a lot of you. But it’s true. I found venues that liked the idea of presenting live acoustic music. They wanted to be different than the other clubs, present something more intimate and special. That’s how I sold it. Granted this was in New Orleans or New York City, places with culture, but I did it in smaller towns too. As I said before, people have to be shown that it can work.
My first big gig in NYC was the Algonquin, a storied cabaret room. The managing editor of the NYT saw us playing in the subway and demanded the Algonquin hire us, total unknowns. They made us play their lobby a few times just to check us out, all acoustic, Norman Mailer and Al Hirschfeld sat in front of us and complimented the music, and then we were IN. Played an all acoustic residency for over a year. Our music did not look interesting on paper. We played parlor songs from the 20’s, pre 1930 jazz/blues, jugband music, pre-bluegrass, originals, Martinique instrumentals, New Orleans stuff…pretty much anything we wanted. But it wasn’t precious, we did it our way, unselfconsciously. You would think that would be the tiniest niche, but it was actually universally loved. We were a cover band, ha! From the 20’s.

 

[Bullitt5135]

We played a nice gig last night at my local brewery beer garden. We had a good turnout…I think the $20 I spent to boost our Facebook event helped spread the reach far beyond our usual circle. Unfortunately, the bar was short staffed due to both managers (husband & wife) being on leave for a family crisis. They were in the weeds early and patience was wearing thin. Hosting live music is new for them, and hopefully they will figure out a better system for the busy nights like this. We played for food and beer and a modest fee. We are trying to establish a home base where we are in on the ground floor. Next gig there will be a fundraiser for their manager who is going through a tough time. This could very well have been a wallflower kind of gig, but everybody stepped up and to make it successful and worthwhile. We all had a blast, and we managed to gain a bunch of new fans in the process.

We followed that up with a free block party gig today in a friend’s neighborhood. Free beer and tacos and a great crowd that set up a Venmo fund so people could tip us. I think we raked $500 in a couple of hours, and we had several people inquire about our schedule and booking us for other events. Man, I’d take gigs like this every day over the typical bar gig with the difficult owners and late nights.

 

[pepj]

I always watch the audience. If I see them talking casually and not having to lean over or shout at each other I know that we're not too loud.

You're lucky that you can be so discriminating in your gig choices. You must have a lot of different kinds of venues from which to choose. If we were to only take gigs from only places that were perfect for us we wouldn't take very many gigs, maybe not any.

Volume is a thing of course.

But yes, every bar wants to do music but only a few of them actually make it work....
So thats like 7 or 8 places that will rotate you 3 times a year.
The issue is avoiding the idiot bars full of drunks.

 

[51PRI]

...I find the venues that I want to play and then go from there....I often got gigs that were all acoustic!...I found venues that liked the idea of presenting live acoustic music.....My first big gig in NYC was the Algonquin, a storied cabaret room. The managing editor of the NYT saw us playing in the subway and demanded the Algonquin hire us...Norman Mailer and Al Hirschfeld sat in front of us and complimented the music...We played parlor songs from the 20’s, pre 1930 jazz/blues, jugband music, pre-bluegrass, originals, Martinique instrumentals, New Orleans stuff....We were a cover band, ha! From the 20’s.

Are you Woody Allen?

 

[iTzPrime]

Damn this thread is full of seemingly ignorant takes. I am in my late 20s now and live music is thriving. So first some general points about live music and then I will respond to a few posts of the OP.

Cover bands are disappearing except for big outdoor parties and weddings here in Austria. Everyone has Spotify and most of the cover bands are just out of touch with the audience or non great entertainers. Everyone has Youtube and can listen to live version of the original, so unless you bring something to the table you are just ignored. Furthermore with a few exceptions the cover music that is booked, is Wallpaper music not the main act.

Also it is not a class warefare. The reality is that a lot of cover bands are worse than a Spotify playlist, so why book them when you can't easily adjust the volume if people want to talk more? It is not a disdain for cover bands, just an indifference from the audience for songs they have already heard 1000x times.

If you don't enjoy the audience reaction, you either play in the wrong spot, have the wrong songs or the wrong image.

Regarding bookings. If you want to get fed, tell them. Most organizers have so much on their hand, if you don't specificy you want to get fed, you will not get fed. We have it on our rider and they gladly provided a prepared meal or invited us to a restaurant beforehand - even for the charity gigs.

Regarding phones, it got better over the last few years. Around 2017/18 it was the worst with audience interaction as everyone was filming. Now with gig photographers on Instagram, most just shoot a few photos and then put it away.

Original bands that I went to as well as my own concerts the audience was always excellent. You just have to do something to be better than a Spotify playlist.

I play in a fun metal band and it already starts with dress code. The singer and first guitarist dress in classic metal style, our second guitarist in a Hawaii shirt and I dress completely different everytime (from Corpse Paint to Anime Cosplay) just to create a fun vibe. Then we have stupid dance battles during bass riffs and other audience interactions and they love it. So do the venues as we have some drinking games in the songs. We hardly play anymore a two bandmates got their first children, but when we do the audience is cool. After two gigs we played for free, we always asked for at least 250€ each time and never once were turned down, with most gigs paying more.

Create something that isn't out there and creates entertainment and people will enjoy themselves.

My trio has at least 3 albums worth of originals. We mix them in sparingly. Funny story...about 5 years ago we were still a 50/50 band with a "cool name" and pushed as hard as we could to promote ourselves as an original act. We got booked at The Milestone in dirty west end Charlotte which has the honor of having hosted Nirvana back in the day.
We got to the gig and it was what you expect in the 21st century...five bands and their girlfriends. Zero attendees from outside the band circles.
Of course you had a bartender, a soundman, and a door person.
(A bartender a soundman and a door person walk into the Milestone...)

If you are an original band you need to get a lot of people to the first few concerts. Promote yourself on facebook, hang posters etc get everyone you can on the shows. You can't expect people to show up without any context or recommendations from people. There is so much content in the world, you need to stand out.

 

[LBS-bass]

Damn this thread is full of seemingly ignorant takes. I am in my late 20s now and live music is thriving. So first some general points about live music and then I will respond to a few posts of the OP.

Cover bands are disappearing except for big outdoor parties and weddings here in Austria. Everyone has Spotify and most of the cover bands are just out of touch with the audience or non great entertainers. Everyone has Youtube and can listen to live version of the original, so unless you bring something to the table you are just ignored. Furthermore with a few exceptions the cover music that is booked, is Wallpaper music not the main act.

Also it is not a class warefare. The reality is that a lot of cover bands are worse than a Spotify playlist, so why book them when you can't easily adjust the volume if people want to talk more? It is not a disdain for cover bands, just an indifference from the audience for songs they have already heard 1000x times.

If you don't enjoy the audience reaction, you either play in the wrong spot, have the wrong songs or the wrong image.

Regarding bookings. If you want to get fed, tell them. Most organizers have so much on their hand, if you don't specificy you want to get fed, you will not get fed. We have it on our rider and they gladly provided a prepared meal or invited us to a restaurant beforehand - even for the charity gigs.

Regarding phones, it got better over the last few years. Around 2017/18 it was the worst with audience interaction as everyone was filming. Now with gig photographers on Instagram, most just shoot a few photos and then put it away.

Original bands that I went to as well as my own concerts the audience was always excellent. You just have to do something to be better than a Spotify playlist.

I play in a fun metal band and it already starts with dress code. The singer and first guitarist dress in classic metal style, our second guitarist in a Hawaii shirt and I dress completely different everytime (from Corpse Paint to Anime Cosplay) just to create a fun vibe. Then we have stupid dance battles during bass riffs and other audience interactions and they love it. So do the venues as we have some drinking games in the songs. We hardly play anymore a two bandmates got their first children, but when we do the audience is cool. After two gigs we played for free, we always asked for at least 250€ each time and never once were turned down, with most gigs paying more.

Create something that isn't out there and creates entertainment and people will enjoy themselves.



If you are an original band you need to get a lot of people to the first few concerts. Promote yourself on facebook, hang posters etc get everyone you can on the shows. You can't expect people to show up without any context or recommendations from people. There is so much content in the world, you need to stand out.

When I read your first paragraph I thought, "oh, man, here we go, someone who will think he knows what he doesn't yet know." But I was 100% wrong. You have an excellent take on all of this and this was a really good post that points up most of the same things a lot of us have been saying - which is that it's laziness and a lack of vision on the part of bands who can't be bothered to do what it takes to elevate themselves above the mediocrity in the middle.

We could probably argue all day about why there's so much mediocrity, but it seems like that's the end goal for many bands. The supposed rules they work by tell them they should play the same songs as everyone else, wear street clothes on stage, limit their practice time so they don't know the songs well, and remind everyone it's just a hobby so they don't have to care much when things go wrong. And they happily accept getting paid according to what they offer, which is not much, so it's not much.

 

[BadSanta1281]

Don't blame the audience if you can't hold their attention, amirite?

 

[Pocket Dave]

Don't blame the audience if you can't hold their attention, amirite?

Yep. There are LOTS of ways to make this work.

LOTS of ways to fail too. If you're trying to be the kind of high-level musician where everyone gives you their undivided attention, good luck; You'd better be beyond ridiculously good.

You'd also better have enough comfort in your own skin and ability to honestly enjoy being up there and connecting with people to be entertaining, especially playing bars and restaurants.