When does a Baritone Guitar become a Short scale bass?

[Nic.]

Sorry to muddy the waters more, but If an musician is described by Role, and the Instrument they use is what is based non how it is used, but every instrument has it's own timbre and is therefore a different role, each instrument defines the role of the musician and we still don't know what this hypothetical half guitar half bass instrument is...

I think it's whatever you want it to be, as long as it can do what you want it to do.

So, a 30" scale Bass IV E-e with thicker strings is a Bass.
A, 28"-30" scale guitar A-a with guitar strings is a Baritone
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So... What is a 30" guitar E-e with guitar strings?

A high-tension disaster waiting to happen xD seriously, those thin strings snap way too often...

If I trigger synth bass sounds from a bass? Or tuba samples? If I play bass guitar samples from a keyboard?

I've lost track if what the point was.

To me there are two points or purposes of this discussion. The first is primarily philosophical and chasing a question for the sake of chasing it. The other is figuring out whether an instrument is suitable for a purpose or not.

So anyway, yeah, if you went through my long and admittedly horrible to read post earlier, I did mention that you -can- get the sound of another instrument to varying degrees of success, depending on how good your equipment is (e.g. no latency in your triggering), but there's still technique to look out for. You could play bass guitar samples from a keyboard, but you might not get the same note envelopes, attack and release, phrasing and natural choice of notes that marks out the bass guitar instrument, and for historical reasons, these factors are part of what defines the role of a bass guitar. And the sound, together with all these, determine how well you fulfill the role of a bass guitarist using a different instrument.

And that, I think, is quite an important consideration, actually - whether you're fulfilling your role well enough to be accepted (whether by others or by yourself).

 

[40Hz]

Musicians are defined by instrument more than role. If it was just role (bottom end) then you would have the same person play tuba, bass guitar, double bass, or synth bass keys as required. And whilst I have seen one person play bass and tuba in the same band, I've yet to see all four in one performance.

Not all in one performance maybe, or simultaneously since most of us have a limited number of hands. But many bass players play multiple instruments yet still stay within the bass role as I half-assed define it. A small synth (I count those guitar-type synths with the isolated element pickups that bolt to a bass as a separate instrument) like a Sub Phatty or MiniMoog isn't that unusual for a bass guitar (I prefer the term "electric bass") player to be employing during the same gig.

Minor point to consider: the bass role also doesn't usually benefit from multiple bass players in a given song. There are exceptions, but they're fairly rare and well enough known that we probably are aware of them already so I won't bother listing them.

 

[HaphAsSard]

A high-tension disaster waiting to happen xD seriously, those thin strings snap way too often...

Not at all, provided you don't bend the high E and don't sweat too profusely: it will have the same tension it has when tuned to octave G on a 12 string guitar. I wouldn't go heavier than .010 though, and a .009 should be IMO the best compromise between high tension and inherent fragility.

I'll address other points mentioned when the thread settles a bit, you guys are too fast for me...

 

[DirtDog]

This is just me, but I think that the Baritone guitar enjoyed its finest moment, when Glen Campbell played the riff in 'Witchita Lineman' on a Danelectro Baritone. That was some pretty sexy 'Ear Candy'.
(By the way, Glen did a rendition of that song with Stone Temple Pilots Eric Kretz, Robert and Dean DeLeo, on STP's DVD, 'Thank You'. Definitely worth a look, if you are a fan of the song.)

Love that song, love that baritone solo by GC. I have bought more than one baritone guitar over the years based on that solo alone. Also like very much the STP version featuring Glen Campbell. Very fine.

With Steve Earle's Guitar Town coming a close second.

 

[DirtDog]

So, interesting blurb from that Fender article referenced earlier....

"As Fender has always intended and characterized its Bass VI, the terms “six-string bass guitar” and “baritone guitar” are not interchangeable. Although the differences might seem subtle to some, they’re definitely two different kinds of instruments"

This can be quickly falsified by the existence of the Gretsch G5265 Jet Baritone (incidentally, a Fender product). It's baritone only in name as it has a 30" scale length (as opposed to 27" for thier other baritone products) and originally came from the factory with Bass VI tuning (E-e) although apparently they now come shipped with baritone strings tunes B-b.

So, Fender, which is it?

The issue with this guitar is replacing the strings - baritone strings (B-b) to suit the longer scale length AND leave enough wrap for the Bigsby were IMO underwhelming. Not sure what the stock strings were but on the G5265 I owned, I ended up restringing with D'Addario XL155 Jerry Jones strings (.024-.084, E-e) which brought it more into Bass VI territory tonally. Also made the Bigsby unuseable.

 

[RedVee]

So, interesting blurb from that Fender article referenced earlier....

"As Fender has always intended and characterized its Bass VI, the terms “six-string bass guitar” and “baritone guitar” are not interchangeable. Although the differences might seem subtle to some, they’re definitely two different kinds of instruments"

This can be quickly falsified by the existence of the Gretsch G5265 Jet Baritone (incidentally, a Fender product). It's baritone only in name as it has a 30" scale length (as opposed to 27" for thier other baritone products) and originally came from the factory with Bass VI tuning (E-e) although apparently they now come shipped with baritone strings tunes B-b.

So, Fender, which is it?

The issue with this guitar is replacing the strings - baritone strings (B-b) to suit the longer scale length AND leave enough wrap for the Bigsby were IMO underwhelming. Not sure what the stock strings were but on the G5265 I owned, I ended up restringing with D'Addario XL155 Jerry Jones strings (.024-.084, E-e) which brought it more into Bass VI territory tonally. Also made the Bigsby unuseable.

the Squier Jazzmaster Baritone I referenced earlier is 30" A-a .

 

[Bajo Clarkko]

Love that song, love that baritone solo by GC. I have bought more than one baritone guitar over the years based on that solo alone. Also like very much the STP version featuring Glen Campbell. Very fine.

With Steve Earle's Guitar Town coming a close second.

I only have one Baritone guitar, a Danelectro, and I'd be lying if I were to say that song (and riff) didn't have something to do with it.
That, and the fact that you can't really play Spaghetti Western music without a Baritone.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Musicians are defined by instrument more than role. If it was just role (bottom end) then you would have the same person play tuba, bass guitar, double bass, or synth bass keys as required. And whilst I have seen one person play bass and tuba in the same band, I've yet to see all four in one performance.

During King Crimson's Three Of A Perfect Pair tour there was one tune (it might have been "Dig Me") where Tony Levin played bass, Chapman Stick, and synth bass all within the same tune...often all within the span of a couple measures! It was a real trip to see him juggle those instruments.

 

[two fingers]

13th birthday or whenever it gets to 3rd base for the first time.... whichever comes first.

 

[GIBrat51]

When does a baritone guitar become a bass? When you go to all the trouble and expense to try and make it (IMO, a half-assed) one. Personally, I like my baritone guitar as just that - a baritone guitar. There are plenty of real 6-string basses, if you really want one.. but, please yourself. Everyone should have a project of some sort to work on...

 

[HaphAsSard]

When does a baritone guitar become a bass? When you go to all the trouble and expense to try and make it (IMO, a half-assed) one. Personally, I like my baritone guitar as just that - a baritone guitar. There are plenty of real 6-string basses, if you really want one.. but, please yourself. Everyone should have a project of some sort to work on...

Real 6, schmeal 6. I find a bass just makes a poor man's, half-assed bass VI. Baritone guitars, on the other hand, are much closer: they only need a lovelock and to lose the black framed glasses.

 

[GIBrat51]

Like I said; please yourself...

 

[HaphAsSard]

Same to ya...

 

[40Hz]

Can't get enough bottom? Check this one out. (I've posted about this number elsewhere.)

Doesn't get any darker or smokier than this arrangement. Two baritone guitars plus bass in the same song. Bass clarinet too! Almost impossible to make something like that work. But Snarky Puppy delivers - like they always do. Lucy Woodward is no slouch either. (Pretty easy on the eyes too. )

 

[RedVee]

sorry to piggyback on this thread. But how does a piccolo Bass compare to a baritone Guitar?
I'm thinking that they both have specific strings as opposed to a regular bass guitar, but they are both in the same pool tone wise?
I guess the picolo has an advantage (to me) of being available as a 4 string, or a 4 string bass is modifiable to picolo by using the strings and a nut change/mod.
So the string spacing would be familiar. I'm basing this off looking at Zander Zon videos.

Am I off track here? I have no experience with either baritone guitars or picolo bass guitars, just thinking about things in this universe.

 

[HaphAsSard]

sorry to piggyback on this thread. But how does a piccolo Bass compare to a baritone Guitar?
I'm thinking that they both have specific strings as opposed to a regular bass guitar, but they are both in the same pool tone wise?
I guess the picolo has an advantage (to me) of being available as a 4 string, or a 4 string bass is modifiable to picolo by using the strings and a nut change/mod.
So the string spacing would be familiar. I'm basing this off looking at Zander Zon videos.

Am I off track here? I have no experience with either baritone guitars or picolo bass guitars, just thinking about things in this universe.

No experience with piccolo tuning either, but here are some thoughts.
First things first, let's make this more apples to apples and put aside bass VI type things unless when one doesn't use their lowest octave.
Bass rig vs. guitar rig and pick vs. fingers are things that are going to definitely make a difference; also, piccolo strings on a 34" will probably sound different because of tension/scale alone. Bass-specific pickups, while not inherently different from guitar ones construction-wise, can and often have a different voicing. Their positioning also matters.
Playing a baritone or bass VI (from 82.4 Hz on up as said) vs. a piccolo through the same rig and both fingerstyle, string spacing too is probably going to make a difference by affecting touch: having more room for fingers may translate into a slightly fatter and punchier tone.
Feel-wise a bass player usually feels more at home with a piccolo for obvious reasons. I am used to playing pizz on my VI (as well as guitar-fingerstyle depending on the song/passage) so it can be done - trust me, I'm no Regie Wooten - but it does feel like another instrument when compared to my four-bangers.
This is all I can think of in this regard for the moment.

 

[RedVee]

No experience with piccolo tuning either, but here are some thoughts.
First things first, let's make this more apples to apples and put aside bass VI type things unless when one doesn't use their lowest octave.
Bass rig vs. guitar rig and pick vs. fingers are things that are going to definitely make a difference; also, piccolo strings on a 34" will probably sound different because of tension/scale alone. Bass-specific pickups, while not inherently different from guitar ones construction-wise, can and often have a different voicing. Their positioning also matters.
Playing a baritone or bass VI (from 82.4 Hz on up as said) vs. a piccolo through the same rig and both fingerstyle, string spacing too is probably going to make a difference by affecting touch: having more room for fingers may translate into a slightly fatter and punchier tone.
Feel-wise a bass player usually feels more at home with a piccolo for obvious reasons. I am used to playing pizz on my VI (as well as guitar-fingerstyle depending on the song/passage) so it can be done - trust me, I'm no Regie Wooten - but it does feel like another instrument when compared to my four-bangers.
This is all I can think of in this regard for the moment.

Thanks. I should have said but I have in my mind piccolo on a 30" scale as it is obviously a closer comparison.

Yeah, I was thinking the string spacing would be a great advantage (for me anyway ); I had a little noodle on a Squier Bass VI at a local shop, and while I loved it I struggled a little with the string spacing for finger style, switched to using the thumb mainly. But the big thing was the tension on the low E string - couldn't handle it, though I'm told it's easily fixed with a string change.

 

[shmulik]

I thought this might be a somewhat appropriate place for my query...I'm a piano player who's dabbled in both bass and guitar for years. I find bass more fun to play and more comfortable, thanks to fewer strings and more space between. However, I've been thinking a lot about finding a way to cover more of the "guitar range" on a 4-string instrument. I've been checking out some super-short scale basses - Japanese or Korean-made instruments that are built to be 4-string basses but have guitar-like scales of 24 to 25 inches. (This is an example.)

I'm wondering whether I can get lighter-gauge strings on one of these and tune to something like BEAD or CGDA (which I've heard called "cello guitar" tuning) without the action or intonation getting too wacky. It seems like it *should* work - if these super-short basses have shorter scale even than most baritones, with the right strings (and maybe a new bridge or nut) they essentially could be 4-string guitars. But I could also see the relations between tension, action and intonation getting weird.

Any thoughts, or has anyone seen this kind of thing done?

 

[Nic.]

I assume you mean BEAD where the b is higher than the low e on a usual 4string bass?

 

[Eilif]

I don't have any hard and fast answers, but Barritone, Bass, etc are monikers that refer to an instruments range. Scale length is not really the best descriptor of whether a bass, guitar or something else. I would focus more on what the instrument's range is rather than other factors. This could mean that the instrument can change based on what strings are put on it, but that's ok.

I would note also that the waters are muddied when dealing with electric instruments since at they're core they're all simply a board with pickups and strings. With accoustic instruments, it's easier to apply terms because the shape and size has much more effect on the sound (tone and volume) produced.