When does a Baritone Guitar become a Short scale bass?

[MrMerrey]

I've recently been trapped down the Wikipedia rabbit looking at the infinite variations of musical instruments and have had a question that I cant seem to find an answer too...

When does a baritone guitar become a six string short scale bass? The only really difference would be tuning, which you could change? If you tune a six string bass to baritone guitar (E, A, D, G, b, e) is it now a baritone guitar? And when does a normal guitar become baritone for that matter? And what about piccolo Basses, at what point do have to admit they have become a guitar?

This isn't critically important I know but it could be an interesting discussion?

Thanks for indulging my pointless thought patterns.

Dan

 

[Jon Moody]

While baritone tuning isn't widely standardized yet, the tuning is usually understood as B E A D F# B or A D G C E A, and that's what you'll usually find in packaged sets.

That said, I think it's about intent. If you play a baritone guitar like a bass, you can make the argument that at that point, it's a short scale bass. The large majority of artists that play a baritone guitar do not play it in this fashion, but use it either for just a lowered tuning or to help augment their sound (if playing with a standard tuned electric). But at the end of the day, it's still mechanically a baritone guitar, no matter what you do with it.

The same argument can be applied to extended range guitars, where 8 strings easily fall into the lower end of the bass frequency. You can comp a fairly convincing bass sound with one of those, but it's still mechanically a guitar.

 

[MrMerrey]

Well say you built a 29.5 scale length 6 string instrument... half way between long baritone and short bass and don't put strings on it. Which is it? If the determining factor is tuning and intent then this hypothetical instrument could be either at this point? Is it there for both or neither?

Is an instrument only it's use?

 

[Bob_Ross]

Well say you built a 29.5 scale length 6 string instrument... half way between long baritone and short bass and don't put strings on it. Which is it? If the determining factor is tuning and intent then this hypothetical instrument could be either at this point? Is it there for both or neither?

I love it! It's a Zen koan for guitarists!





...and fwiw, I would refer to that instrument as "incomplete"

Or perhaps "potential". Once you put strings on it, then it becomes "kinetic" ...either a kinetic baritone guitar, or a kinetic bass guitar, depending on which strings you selected.

 

[MrMerrey]

I love it! It's a Zen koan for guitarists!





...and fwiw, I would refer to that instrument as "incomplete"

Or perhaps "potential". Once you put strings on it, then it becomes "kinetic" ...either a kinetic baritone guitar, or a kinetic bass guitar, depending on which strings you selected.

Well if you set it up to tune for say BEADGC but 1 octave up... that bass guitar tuning but baritone guitar strings...

 

[Bob_Ross]

Well if you set it up to tune for say BEADGC but 1 octave up...

Then you have an alto guitar.

 

[MrMerrey]

So it can be one of 3 things... This is kind of my point where are the lines?

 

[Nic.]

It exists in a state of superposition until someone observes you playing it.

Aaaaanyway I don't see why can't it be both. You know in fact you could use it as both bass and guitar in the same song lol

 

[MrMerrey]

It exists in a state of superposition until someone observes you playing it.

Does that mean if you play it you must be a cat?

 

[Nic.]

Does that mean if you play it you must be a cat?

It just means if you play it, a jazz cat who's playing chord tones in the box either lives or dies.

 

[MonetBass]

It exists in a state of superposition until someone observes you playing it.

Schrodinger's bass guitar?

 

[Nic.]

Schrodinger's bass guitar?

Yeaaaah. You need to collapse that thing!

 

[MrMerrey]

I wish my knowledge of Quantum theory was better, I'm sure there are more jokes to be made... and that there aren't...

 

[bonespatrol]

i think it's an issue of scale legnth. less than 30" is in guitar territory. 30"+, i believe we're talking about a bass (not accounting for sub scale floppy rubbery strung "basses").

 

[Joedog]

When it reaches puberty.

 

[MrMerrey]

When it reaches puberty.

Does that mean you get put on a list if you play guitar?

 

[brianrost]

It's all semantics. The first "baritone guitars" were 6-sting basses...Danelectro was first, later Fender Bass VI. Both tuned E-E.

The Fender Jaguar baritones had 28-5/8" scales, first sold tuned E-E, then later B-B. The later Tele Blacktop baritone had a 27" scale and was tuned B-B.

My Pawn Shop VI came set up as an E-E baritone with E and A strings way too light to use as a bass. So I bought a matching D'Addario short scale 4-string set, swapped out those two strings and reintonated. Now it works much better as a bass

You can have even shorter scales on a bass, I had a Supro Pocket Bass...25" scale like a guitar but 4 strings, EADG.

 

[sikamikanico]

It exists in a state of superposition until someone observes you playing it.

Aaaaanyway I don't see why can't it be both. You know in fact you could use it as both bass and guitar in the same song lol

I think there's a lot of truth in this response. "Playing" is key... if it fills the role of the bass instrument, it's a bass guitar... if it fills the role of a melody instrument, it's a baritone guitar. Or whatever you want to call it. Ultimately, all guitars are instruments and can fill any role. Some guitars are just better suited for particular roles, hence we have bass guitars - guitars designed in particular to fill the role of the bass instrument. But you can still play melody on a bass guitar...

 

[Nephilymbass]

I think this is a funny topic because different people look at it different ways. For example I like Meshuggah but I also kinda see them as a band with 3 bass players. To me theres a difference in hybrids like The src6. But guitar and bass wise it mainly comes down to what type of sound are the electronics designed for. A 9 string guitar has a lower range than a 4 string standard tuned bass, but they don't sound the same at all. A tuba isn't a bass guitar no matter what the range is. In our band our guitarists has tried a bunch of different scale guitars 24",25", 27" even a 30" but for years now he just buys a 7'string set and puts them on standard 6 string guitars and trashes the high e strings. He tunes to b mainly so it makes sense.

 

[The Ryantist]

I don't know where the hard line is...others above have mentioned the primary use and function of the instrument and I agree.

But something no one has mentioned yet is string gauge and tension. A 28" baritone guitar tuned down to F# will typically use a .074" string with a tension of around 18 lb. A typical low E string on a bass is 34" long, .100" gauge, for a tension of about 38 lb. The strings on a bass guitar are (usually) more massive and under more tension, and this causes them to sound beefy. A guitar string sounds thinner because it is! And a thinner string helps with that djenty sound many baritone guitars are after. If guitar strings get too thick, they sound muddy IMO.