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When is it OK to lie?

#26
fhm555 said:
It's never OK to lie.

Sometimes it's necessary, but it's never OK.
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Even to your child asking you if his drawing is nice when it's not or whether he can be an astronaut even though maybe a handful of people get to do that, etc?

It's very much OK to do that and lie under other circumstances. The exceptions are everywhere, but that's why they're called exceptions. Because the rule is you shouldn't lie unless it's one of those situations where you don't want to unnecessarily hurt somebody.
 
#28
I use to lie like the devil himself in the past saying "I have plans" whenever I was asked to work on weekends and never once felt bad about it. Screw 'em. I work 60 hours a week Monday thru Friday with no time for anything and I'm not going to let them take weekends away from me. Management doesn't put in the hours I do, nor do they work weekends so why should I? They're no better than me and I told them that!. Now they don't even bother asking me because they know I won't budge.

The more you give, the more is expected and then the more is demanded. I've seen it happen too many times before.
 
#29
I lie daily ;). I've actually gotten better about it though in the last few years. I think it's fine to lie if you're not hurting anyone and your good at it. Of course, I would say that. Truth be told, I'm not very good at it... well either that or my dad has some sort of super-human perceptive abilities. And yet I still try :p. Geez, I can't imagine telling my parents "Hey mom, hey pop, I'm hittin' the club. Oh, what am I going to do there? Ya' know, the usual, grind on some chicks who I have no chance with. What? No, dad, you can't come!"
 
#30
Unrepresented said:
The question presupposes a moral hierarchy of activities. Based on this, one would assume that lying is appropriate when counteracting activities with greater harm, or inversely creating greater good that would offset the negative moral value of the lie.

Of course, to do this, we'd have to have a uniform (or for you blind idealists out there, an "objective") set of moral rankings of all activities, by all people, in all situations, and be able to comprehend the value of all alternative outcomes.

Unfortunately the time, research, computation, and compilation involved in the study of any particular act and its associated nearly infinite set of lies, half truths, misleading statements, and sins of omission would almost immediately crush society's resources, and we'd all die starving and soaking in our excrement while eaten by various taxa of scavengers, and low level predators.
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Pierre Bourdieu has something he calls "habitus" - a "feel for the game" that enable people to make well-judged decisions without needing to consciously calculate all the variables. When a basketball player goes for a three-pointer, he doesn't pull out a calculator to figure out how much force he needs, at what angle, how much spin to put on it, what the air currents might be. He just "feels" these things based on experience and practice. You could argue a good bass player does the same thing when he ad libs a fill -- he's not running all the music theory in his head at that moment, he just knows where to go.

People do the same thing with ethical decisions. We can't sit down and consciously calculate all the possible ramifications of our actions. But we have a pretty good "feel" for the moral reality that we should NOT tell the Gestapo there are Jews hiding in our attic or whatever. I have no problem with saying that sometimes lying to prevent a greater evil is positively the morally correct thing to do.

fenderhutz said:
Well even though I don't agree with teaching kids this:

Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
Tooth Fairy
Etc Etc

White lies are still lies. Just because it's kids doesn't make it less of a lie. Lying is lying regardless of intent.
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There is a difference between lying to deceive and playing make-believe. When my daughter dresses up in a tiara and says "look at me, daddy, I'm a princess!" I don't punish her for lying to me. When my kids asked me if Santa Claus was real, I told them there were two possibilities; either Santa Claus was real, or else Santa Claus was a game of make-believe that parents play to make Christmas magical for their children. I would hate to be the one to spoil the game.
 
#33
FilterFunk said:
Some big, mean, nasty-lookin' dude walks up to you and asks, "Do you know where I can find (insert a friend's or family member's name here)?" You know exactly where the person in question is. Lie to the big, mean, nasty-lookin' dude.
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For that matter, when the kind, gentle, and elderly police officer asks you if you are guilty, you will always be best served if you state that you are innocent. If you are guilty, it is best to allow the powers that be to do their job and prove it, and you are always better represented by a lawyer in matters of law. Given this, I think it is wrong to lie but sometimes expedient.
Droot
 
#37
hrodbert696 said:
Pierre Bourdieu has something he calls "habitus" - a "feel for the game" that enable people to make well-judged decisions without needing to consciously calculate all the variables. When a basketball player goes for a three-pointer, he doesn't pull out a calculator to figure out how much force he needs, at what angle, how much spin to put on it, what the air currents might be. He just "feels" these things based on experience and practice. You could argue a good bass player does the same thing when he ad libs a fill -- he's not running all the music theory in his head at that moment, he just knows where to go.

People do the same thing with ethical decisions. We can't sit down and consciously calculate all the possible ramifications of our actions. But we have a pretty good "feel" for the moral reality that we should NOT tell the Gestapo there are Jews hiding in our attic or whatever. I have no problem with saying that sometimes lying to prevent a greater evil is positively the morally correct thing to do.
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I'm not sure that the basketball v. morality comparison is an appropriate one. One has a clear set of finite rules and a goal. The only thing that we're left to interpret is a strategy: when and how to apply those rules to achieve that goal.

Morality doesn't have a clear set of rules, or even an air tight working definition. It's entirely subjective, based on empathy levels, and liquid social politics. Nor does it have a concise goal, like "have a higher ending score than your opponent within a set time period." Lying is just one fluffy piece of the undefined cloud of morality. A three point shot is a very defined part of a very defined goal.

If we knew, out of "habitus" what morality was, we wouldn't need this discussion, because we'd all be doing it, no?
 
#39
Soul Power said:
^^really? You're wowed by that? Do you have any idea how many lies are told everyday? Chances are you do it too, because omission is a form of lying. Like him, I think it's so ingrained in our nature that its impossible to avoid, but I by no means think it's right.
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Yep. You had a terrible night & morning, you're hung over and your g/f left you for your best friend.

A coworker says "Hey, how's it going?" 99.9% of the time, you'll reply "Good, you?"

See? A lie that's told a million times everyday.
 

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