Seriously, what drama ... you didn't like the lay of the land, so don't do it, just look for something else. 
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when someone asks you to try playing with a pick....
- Thread starter hernameisrio
- Start date
It's cool. I'm not gonna look. I'm not gonna bother right now. I've been jerked around endlessly for months and feel like I've been auditioned to death, misled, and taken advantage of. So right now, I just need to feel good about playing again, of my own accord, outside of the circus of other bands. Which means getting back to ME, not constantly bending myself for others without any reward. When it happens again and again, it's not fun, ok? When I am greeted with meaningless platitudes or empty tough love statements without any acknowledgement of how massively stressful and draining this has been for me, it's not helpful. I'm getting the $&@) off this site and I'm gonna just sit in my room and practice and get back to MY goals and MY happiness. None of this is good for me. Do I have to curse to get a mod to close the thread? Or can I just request it politely? 
And finally?
All I've ever tried to do in any project I've tried out for or been in, was work hard, be agreeable, learn the songs, show up on time, get the right gear, have the right look, play the right way, and show up in the right rehearsal room.
So, given that, I think I've simply had bad luck. While I shoulda/coulda/probably will handle these situations differently (which is what I TRIED to do here by actually speaking up instead of just letting someone else tell me how to play my instrument), the fact remains that it works both ways and I simply have not found the right project yet.
I don't like the Internet anymore. I don't like this forum. I don't like the borderline-gaslighting which goes on when I, god forbid, express emotion at something which MANY of us have faced. How many angry threads about Band Management? Why is it suddenly "drama" when I spell it out? Why am I suddenly "getting emotionally involved" when, DUH, that's what people DO?! That's what everybody does when we play with bands....that's how it works...that's WHY it works. So why am I suddenly being condemned for it?
I kinda wasn't really even asking for advice...? I was asking for sympathy, commiseration, and validation. I was making sure that I am not the only one who this has happened to, that I'm not "wrong" for feeling like once again I am being played.
That's all. I don't expect anybody here to "get it" anymore. I'm sick of trying to express/explain/and defend myself to a bunch of people I don't even know. It has taken up way too much of my energy and time. Many times I have ended up answering my own questions anyway. I tried to accommodate this dude by playing with a pick and embracing that. But when it then turned into him telling me to play that way indefinitely and that that was the "only" way to get the sound they wanted, that was it for me. They need Dee Dee Ramone, they don't need me. And it could've been that simple, except that the coercive way in which he tried to justify his rigid standards, was extremely offensive to me.
If people want to tell me what to do, there is a right and a wrong way to do it. I hate being talked into things when I am more likely to DO those things, if I arrive at it on my own. It just feels really sleazy and weird and gross to me to be coerced into things and even "Sure, I'll try it" is apparently not enough for them. This happens to me in other areas of my life too....people constantly "suggesting" (read: requiring) all sorts of things, without ever considering my comfort level. That was the tipping point when I felt like they had NOT been clear about what they wanted, had expected way too much from me- or came off that way, at any rate, and were expecting a "hired gun" performance for free. That's what I was trying to get across when I brought up money as a hypothetical scenario.
Oh, I'm sorry. It's A Band, None Of Us Make Money In This. That's fine too. Then can I at least choose the bass and tone *I* want? Can I at least make suggestions?
Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't even in the band yet? That's fine. But you should've told me you were still trying me out, when you handed me the entire album to learn in a matter of weeks. I'm supposed to just know that? I didn't know. Because in past projects I've been in, the phrase "we want to work with you" HAS translated to "you're in the band." In past experiences I've had, behavior like this has indicated that I am now a member. So, if I wasn't, they should've just told me that. Once again, I'm not psychic.
Cool, so, I'm "wrong." I'm "unprofessional" because I calmly and politely attempted a COMPROMISE with these people and they still tried to badger me into completely overhauling my style for THEIR songs, THEIR image, THEIR sound.
How it should've gone, was this:
"We need a bass player. We need a bass player who plays with a pick. They must learn all the bass lines note for note which will be written by our guitarist/producer. We just need somebody to play the lines and play future bass lines that our guitarist/producer writes, with a pick. We are not making any money. The songs are the property of the guitarist/producer. If you agree to these conditions, please learn three songs and show up. If we want to continue the tryout we will call you back in for a second rehearsal after sending you six more songs and having you pick four out of the six to learn. We have a very strict idea of our image and sound. You must be willing to match this."
Instead of all this fluffy, passive-aggressive language and these fake attempts at pretending you care about my creative input. If the project had been "pitched" to me like that, if I'd read THAT ad, I would've run for the hills!
But it doesn't matter now. So whatever. Have fun, kids.
All I've ever tried to do in any project I've tried out for or been in, was work hard, be agreeable, learn the songs, show up on time, get the right gear, have the right look, play the right way, and show up in the right rehearsal room.
So, given that, I think I've simply had bad luck. While I shoulda/coulda/probably will handle these situations differently (which is what I TRIED to do here by actually speaking up instead of just letting someone else tell me how to play my instrument), the fact remains that it works both ways and I simply have not found the right project yet.
I don't like the Internet anymore. I don't like this forum. I don't like the borderline-gaslighting which goes on when I, god forbid, express emotion at something which MANY of us have faced. How many angry threads about Band Management? Why is it suddenly "drama" when I spell it out? Why am I suddenly "getting emotionally involved" when, DUH, that's what people DO?! That's what everybody does when we play with bands....that's how it works...that's WHY it works. So why am I suddenly being condemned for it?
I kinda wasn't really even asking for advice...? I was asking for sympathy, commiseration, and validation. I was making sure that I am not the only one who this has happened to, that I'm not "wrong" for feeling like once again I am being played.
That's all. I don't expect anybody here to "get it" anymore. I'm sick of trying to express/explain/and defend myself to a bunch of people I don't even know. It has taken up way too much of my energy and time. Many times I have ended up answering my own questions anyway. I tried to accommodate this dude by playing with a pick and embracing that. But when it then turned into him telling me to play that way indefinitely and that that was the "only" way to get the sound they wanted, that was it for me. They need Dee Dee Ramone, they don't need me. And it could've been that simple, except that the coercive way in which he tried to justify his rigid standards, was extremely offensive to me.
If people want to tell me what to do, there is a right and a wrong way to do it. I hate being talked into things when I am more likely to DO those things, if I arrive at it on my own. It just feels really sleazy and weird and gross to me to be coerced into things and even "Sure, I'll try it" is apparently not enough for them. This happens to me in other areas of my life too....people constantly "suggesting" (read: requiring) all sorts of things, without ever considering my comfort level. That was the tipping point when I felt like they had NOT been clear about what they wanted, had expected way too much from me- or came off that way, at any rate, and were expecting a "hired gun" performance for free. That's what I was trying to get across when I brought up money as a hypothetical scenario.
Oh, I'm sorry. It's A Band, None Of Us Make Money In This. That's fine too. Then can I at least choose the bass and tone *I* want? Can I at least make suggestions?
Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't even in the band yet? That's fine. But you should've told me you were still trying me out, when you handed me the entire album to learn in a matter of weeks. I'm supposed to just know that? I didn't know. Because in past projects I've been in, the phrase "we want to work with you" HAS translated to "you're in the band." In past experiences I've had, behavior like this has indicated that I am now a member. So, if I wasn't, they should've just told me that. Once again, I'm not psychic.
Cool, so, I'm "wrong." I'm "unprofessional" because I calmly and politely attempted a COMPROMISE with these people and they still tried to badger me into completely overhauling my style for THEIR songs, THEIR image, THEIR sound.
How it should've gone, was this:
"We need a bass player. We need a bass player who plays with a pick. They must learn all the bass lines note for note which will be written by our guitarist/producer. We just need somebody to play the lines and play future bass lines that our guitarist/producer writes, with a pick. We are not making any money. The songs are the property of the guitarist/producer. If you agree to these conditions, please learn three songs and show up. If we want to continue the tryout we will call you back in for a second rehearsal after sending you six more songs and having you pick four out of the six to learn. We have a very strict idea of our image and sound. You must be willing to match this."
Instead of all this fluffy, passive-aggressive language and these fake attempts at pretending you care about my creative input. If the project had been "pitched" to me like that, if I'd read THAT ad, I would've run for the hills!
But it doesn't matter now. So whatever. Have fun, kids.
What a crappy situation.
You likely won't read this, but I hope that you can sniff out these flaky musicians in the future and avoid them before too much stress occurs.
You likely won't read this, but I hope that you can sniff out these flaky musicians in the future and avoid them before too much stress occurs.
Lots of people get called on their BS, not just you. As I pointed out in another thread, the advice you least want to hear is probably the advice you need to hear the most. When every situation you encounter is f'ed up, it's time to look in the mirror.
When you feel in your gut that a situation is not right, that usually ends up being the case. Probably good you didn't waste any more time with these guys.
The good news, however, is that bassists are always in demand. So keep checking CL, keep visible in the local music scene. Meantime, keep your chops up and when the right situation happens you'll be ready.
The good news, however, is that bassists are always in demand. So keep checking CL, keep visible in the local music scene. Meantime, keep your chops up and when the right situation happens you'll be ready.
I don't disagree. I think I'm trying to make myself into a type of musician that I'm not. I've been trying to override my own preferences in the name of being flexible and available...but then I run into people who go against my beliefs and principles because of this. So, no wonder I'm having a hard time. It would be like if I didn't want to date guys who were into drinking, but then I was hanging out at bars to meet guys.
Obviously there's a disconnect and I'm not having fun anymore. And I'm gonna have to figure that out.
Welcome back HNIR.
Rule #1 - Be Yourself!
You'll be much happier that way and others will respect you more. Hmm, I need to do that too.
OK, you didn't solicit that advise, but it seems worth stating anyway. Maybe.
Has anybody heard the story about when Oteil Burbridge was asked join the Allman Brothers Band?? Dicky Betts asked him if he used a pick and when Oteil said no, Dicky made him audition with a pick. How would you like to blow that audition just because you couldn't use a pick??
If and when it looks like it's about to be even remotely possible someone of Dickey Bett's caliber could be callng me for an audition I'll be more than happy to put in the hours and learn to play with a pick. Until then I think finger picking covers all realistic situations. 
If you're playing someone else's music, you should expect to be asked to play it their way. If I wrote music in which the bassist played with a pick, I would expect anyone who filled that role do play with a pick. If that person isn't willing to fulfill my vision for MY music, then they can go. Pretty simple to me.
Fat Steve
The poodle bites, the poodle chews it.
All I can say about this whole thread can be summed up like this:
"Get off the cross, we need the wood."
Wow.
"Get off the cross, we need the wood."
Wow.
Okay...well, I got a little background info on this band that it would've been nice to know before trying out. Because if I'd known it then, I DEFINITELY would've just skipped out on the whole damn thing.
It just so happens that I'm friends with, and used to play in a band with, this band's old drummer. So after this whole thing went down, I filled him in on what happened. And I was basically just like, "I mean, maybe I should've been more agreeable? But it was the way they were treating me, as if I were a hired gun, only without pay...am I crazy? I mean, what...?!" And he said something similar happened to him.
It turns out that their PREVIOUS bassist asked to be paid by the lead singer, who agreed. I'm not sure what made this person so special, but okay. So my friend- the drummer at the time- asked if he could be paid as well. After this, he was fired from the band because of complaining about the unfair payment situation. Not only that, but his name was taken off of the EP he had played on. He's kind of a character and can be a little bit of a loose cannon, but I remember when he was playing with this band and how seriously he took it. So it was a shock to him to be discredited for his work with them. And it was pretty bad of them to do that, too.
So, not that this makes my reaction any better...but it at least explains why the band acted the way they did when I mentioned pay as a hypothetical scenario. I wish I could've somehow known about this before. Obviously it's always awkward to ask about circumstances surrounding ex-members and why they left, but I wish my friend would've thought to mention what happened to him. Apparently, this band's mentality has ALWAYS been "our way or the highway" and furthermore, the guitarist/producer (there should be a catchy name for that, any ideas?!
) played the bass lines on the aforementioned EP with- as my friend describes it- "a piece of @#$ FrankenBass."
I knew there was something up with these guys. It really comes down to my having a pretty bad feeling in my gut about this from the minute I heard the bass lines and got a sense of how the guitarist/producer (guitarucer? ha) worked.
If the identical circumstances had been presented to me in a better way, by people who I felt better about- must play exact notes with a pick- I think I would have been a lot more agreeable. I really do. As you guys recall, I did my homework to match that style...it wasn't like I totally wrote them off and insisted on doing it my way. But there was something about this that worried me from the very beginning, and I should've just stayed away...because in THAT regard, I WAS right.
From here on out, I'm trusting my instincts. I'd rather just risk that someday those instincts might be wrong. As long as I'm not getting paid, I think my highest priority HAS to be my own comfort- not from the standpoint of how difficult the bass lines are, but socially/politically/morally. I mean, music is kinda an outlet for me right now- my job is such a circus and so mentally demanding, that I forget how much I need a positive vibe in my life when it comes to music.
So, I'm auditioning for a group described as "quirky jazz rock" on Friday. The songs give me a warm fuzzy feeling that I now recognize as genuine enthusiasm for something which is a little new and different for me, exactly what I need right now. The ad and the email exchange I've had with the lead singer/bandleader give me a similar feeling of ease. When I sat down to listen to the songs, I felt calm and clear-headed because it's a style of music which leaves so much more space for me than what I've been used to. It's brought me back to all the reasons I love playing bass. It just makes sense...the bass lines sound like what I would've written anyway, so it's almost like my ears only have to do half the work because it falls into place so much more easily than other styles I've tried.
At the least, even if I don't get this gig, it's given me hope that maybe all I have to do is just get away from the indie kid/rocker scene a bit and branch out and not be so afraid of that- I mean come on, if I'm playing along to disco, funk, and Motown in my room on my own time, why am I chasing after all these bands that might not even know who those people are? There's something about the indie/rock scene that I don't think is doing me any favors, even if I might like some of the music as a listener. Maybe I just have a different sensibility or something? I think I just feel better when I play music that has a groove, and I think I tend to approach it differently and perhaps take it more seriously.
I think cover bands are a bit of a different story. But when it comes to originals, I think it might be really, really good for me to push myself towards a style that better suits what I've naturally gravitated to from day one. I'm not suited to be a "power player," the type who beats on the strings, let alone with a pick. It creates an energy that I don't find necessary because it just puts me in a different place...a place I've perhaps outgrown as a musician, as I spent most of my teenage years and 20's heavily involved in the punk/industrial/goth/new wave world. So maybe I need to let myself grow a little more than that and find my own path. The energy I love about playing bass, is the sort of thing that comes from groove, from a lighter touch and an easier feel...where it makes you want to dance. As much as I still listen to some punk, it's just not my thing as a player. I mean, unless you count The Police or something, and look at the styles of music Sting ended up incorporating into that band anyway- jazz and reggae.
I wonder if in my haste to challenge myself, I came across a style I just wasn't into, wasn't that good at, and therefore felt unnecessarily stressed by- to add to the preexisting drama of the band members themselves. So when you look at the big picture of this situation, I think there is more to it than just a little piece of plastic.
It just so happens that I'm friends with, and used to play in a band with, this band's old drummer. So after this whole thing went down, I filled him in on what happened. And I was basically just like, "I mean, maybe I should've been more agreeable? But it was the way they were treating me, as if I were a hired gun, only without pay...am I crazy? I mean, what...?!" And he said something similar happened to him.
It turns out that their PREVIOUS bassist asked to be paid by the lead singer, who agreed. I'm not sure what made this person so special, but okay. So my friend- the drummer at the time- asked if he could be paid as well. After this, he was fired from the band because of complaining about the unfair payment situation. Not only that, but his name was taken off of the EP he had played on. He's kind of a character and can be a little bit of a loose cannon, but I remember when he was playing with this band and how seriously he took it. So it was a shock to him to be discredited for his work with them. And it was pretty bad of them to do that, too.
So, not that this makes my reaction any better...but it at least explains why the band acted the way they did when I mentioned pay as a hypothetical scenario. I wish I could've somehow known about this before. Obviously it's always awkward to ask about circumstances surrounding ex-members and why they left, but I wish my friend would've thought to mention what happened to him. Apparently, this band's mentality has ALWAYS been "our way or the highway" and furthermore, the guitarist/producer (there should be a catchy name for that, any ideas?!
) played the bass lines on the aforementioned EP with- as my friend describes it- "a piece of @#$ FrankenBass." I knew there was something up with these guys. It really comes down to my having a pretty bad feeling in my gut about this from the minute I heard the bass lines and got a sense of how the guitarist/producer (guitarucer? ha) worked.
If the identical circumstances had been presented to me in a better way, by people who I felt better about- must play exact notes with a pick- I think I would have been a lot more agreeable. I really do. As you guys recall, I did my homework to match that style...it wasn't like I totally wrote them off and insisted on doing it my way. But there was something about this that worried me from the very beginning, and I should've just stayed away...because in THAT regard, I WAS right.
From here on out, I'm trusting my instincts. I'd rather just risk that someday those instincts might be wrong. As long as I'm not getting paid, I think my highest priority HAS to be my own comfort- not from the standpoint of how difficult the bass lines are, but socially/politically/morally. I mean, music is kinda an outlet for me right now- my job is such a circus and so mentally demanding, that I forget how much I need a positive vibe in my life when it comes to music.
So, I'm auditioning for a group described as "quirky jazz rock" on Friday. The songs give me a warm fuzzy feeling that I now recognize as genuine enthusiasm for something which is a little new and different for me, exactly what I need right now. The ad and the email exchange I've had with the lead singer/bandleader give me a similar feeling of ease. When I sat down to listen to the songs, I felt calm and clear-headed because it's a style of music which leaves so much more space for me than what I've been used to. It's brought me back to all the reasons I love playing bass. It just makes sense...the bass lines sound like what I would've written anyway, so it's almost like my ears only have to do half the work because it falls into place so much more easily than other styles I've tried.
At the least, even if I don't get this gig, it's given me hope that maybe all I have to do is just get away from the indie kid/rocker scene a bit and branch out and not be so afraid of that- I mean come on, if I'm playing along to disco, funk, and Motown in my room on my own time, why am I chasing after all these bands that might not even know who those people are? There's something about the indie/rock scene that I don't think is doing me any favors, even if I might like some of the music as a listener. Maybe I just have a different sensibility or something? I think I just feel better when I play music that has a groove, and I think I tend to approach it differently and perhaps take it more seriously.
I think cover bands are a bit of a different story. But when it comes to originals, I think it might be really, really good for me to push myself towards a style that better suits what I've naturally gravitated to from day one. I'm not suited to be a "power player," the type who beats on the strings, let alone with a pick. It creates an energy that I don't find necessary because it just puts me in a different place...a place I've perhaps outgrown as a musician, as I spent most of my teenage years and 20's heavily involved in the punk/industrial/goth/new wave world. So maybe I need to let myself grow a little more than that and find my own path. The energy I love about playing bass, is the sort of thing that comes from groove, from a lighter touch and an easier feel...where it makes you want to dance. As much as I still listen to some punk, it's just not my thing as a player. I mean, unless you count The Police or something, and look at the styles of music Sting ended up incorporating into that band anyway- jazz and reggae.
I wonder if in my haste to challenge myself, I came across a style I just wasn't into, wasn't that good at, and therefore felt unnecessarily stressed by- to add to the preexisting drama of the band members themselves. So when you look at the big picture of this situation, I think there is more to it than just a little piece of plastic.
LOL. Had to look up "gaslighting." That's what you think you're getting here?!? LOL
Try being bluewine for a day.
What's the word for perceiving meaningful, thoughtful advice as mental abuse??
Try being bluewine for a day.
What's the word for perceiving meaningful, thoughtful advice as mental abuse??
Did you get the same warm fuzzies from the Pick Insisters Band?
If so, you may have too much invested emotionally before things even get started.
The right situ will come along.
One bene from playing in an original band is more often than not,
they'd want you to play what YOU play, not what somebody else did.
Sometimes the mixing of styles can really bring things together
If so, you may have too much invested emotionally before things even get started.
The right situ will come along.
One bene from playing in an original band is more often than not,
they'd want you to play what YOU play, not what somebody else did.
Sometimes the mixing of styles can really bring things together
I haven't read the whole thread, so this may be redundant - but if you are recording, regardless whether you are getting paid or not, you are at the whim of the producer. If the person producing wants it played with a pick, play it with a pick.
Why wouldn't you? It's no different than being hired at McDonalds and being asked to turn the burgers a certain way. If you want to make your own burgers, go home and make your own. If you want to help them make THEIR burgers, take instruction and do it the way they want. You just might learn something new from the experience.
Why wouldn't you? It's no different than being hired at McDonalds and being asked to turn the burgers a certain way. If you want to make your own burgers, go home and make your own. If you want to help them make THEIR burgers, take instruction and do it the way they want. You just might learn something new from the experience.
Yes it is different. MacDonalds pays people to flip burgers.
That's the whole crux of the issue here (OP's misplaced drama notwithstanding). You say "it's no different" "whether you are getting paid or not" but in fact, that IS the difference that makes ALL the difference.
