When to fire a band member?

[Stinky_Fingers]

I am the band leader of a 10 piece wedding band, 3 piece vocalists, 3 piece horn section and 4 piece rhythm section. We have 1 member that has been regularly acting out over the course of the last 3 weeks. She is one of the singers and her attitude has been very negative. It started when I made an insensitive comment in the group chat about a band that I played in, that she is in having bad communication on stage (in my defense, they absolutely do have bad communication on stage. It would be better to say that there is no communication on stage). Cue the emotional outburst. I get it, I did apologize and speak to her.

Each decision I have made has been contentious, but not a single other member has had an issue. I've even talked with each member to double check. The week of our first gigs, she wants to change the stage plot, after I made it and sent it to the tech. She wants to switch to in ears - not everyone has in ears (the project is young and I am going to have the band fund them when it starts making money). On the gig, she is acting out on stage, speaking to members unprofessionally, and was visibly angry on stage to audience members because the sound guy was not great. Then the way she talks about the sound guy in the chat is ridiculous. He's an older guy who had plumbers crack - her exact words when I told the band we needed to be respectful was "I prefer he not have his ass out in my presence".

Recently, she is trying to fight rehearsal plans for songs that she is not even the lead vocalist because she doesn't think we should do them (the vocalist that is the lead on those songs asked for that artist). She wants to micromanage my booking of gigs, but when I've asked her to do things that would have given her the power to make decisions, she won't do it. The attitude is out of hand. The thing is, if I call her to set it straight, I see it as a lose-lose. I can apologize again for being insensitive, but that's what she wants and I'm not giving in, I've already apologized and she is going to love it if I am subservient at all. If I call and set boundaries, she's going to use it as ammo to explode or throw another tantrum. I am at the point where I am ready to let her go. She's even threatened to quit, even though she really isn't going to because who makes threats and doesn't follow through?

I think the problem is that she doesn't like others making decisions. We had an issue with a piano player who quit who I asked for help on creative decisions, and he was helping call some shots. She didn't like that, she said something to me, I said something to him and he quit. I think at it's core, it's an issue with authority, and completely overvaluing herself. She acts like she's famous because she has a following in a couple bars that really aren't desirable places to play (think like biker bars, rock community type stuff). She's inexperienced, been playing in bands for about 2 years, she's played in the 1 band, meanwhile I've been gigging for nearly 20 years, and ran my own booking agency for several years and have played in big bands.

Here's the complicating factor, she works at the agency I am trying to sign with. She is not an agent, she is an administrative assistant, who basically sends the contracts and files them after the deal is made. Other members are not ready to let her go. The drummer will be fine if I do, but he doesn't want to yet. Another singer thinks the talent outweighs the issues. She is a great singer, but she's an absolute pain in the ass and too negative for me. I already have a back up plan and I think there would be no issues in the band if she is gone. At what point should I fire her?

 

[JonathanPDX]

Paragraph breaks make things much easier to read.

This giant wall of text is unlikely to generate many serious replies.

 

[Stinky_Fingers]

Paragraph breaks make things much easier to read.

This giant wall of text is unlikely to generate many serious replies.

edited

 

[tb-player]

When to fire a band member?​

When they forget the beer.

 

[DWBass]

I'd have one last discussion with her to figure out why she has a bug up her @$$!! If she can't simmer down, she's gone. She's not acting professional at all! And that is a reflection on the band and can give y'all a nasty reputation!! Let her know this!! So yeah, if she can't simmer down...........buh bye!

 

[51PRI]

.... I think at it's core, it's an issue with authority...

I would agree.

 

[MarkRound]

I have been there, many times. Different specifics, same sort of scenario. The thing is, you are already not functioning as a band. It's a dysfunctional relationship and if you let it continue, it'll only poison everything else.

In that situation you just need to ask yourself two honest questions: Can it be saved ? And do you all want to put in the effort to do so ?

From reading through your text, and the fact that you opened up here in the first place, I think you may already have made up your mind even if only unconsciously and are seeking validation. None of us can answer for you, but I will just say this - as someone who has gone through my share of dysfunctional bands AND broken personal relationships - sometimes, as painful as it might be, it's better to rip the bandage off.

Life and music is so much better when you don't have to face that kind of grief, and as awkward as it may be, if you're not making each other happy (which is what music is supposed to be about!) then you're better off finding alternative arrangements that are better suited.

 

[Shepsdad]

Life is too short, rid yourself (and your band members) of the negativity and be done with it. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Pep]

I wouldn’t have let it go on this long. One outbreak, one conversation. Another one, she’s gone.

1) If you’re the bandleader, BE ONE!
2) What’s going on can’t be fun for the other members so clean it up now before it infects your entire group. It’s unfair for everyone else to have to put up with her behavior.
3) Let her go NOW!

 

[UntitledProject]

From what I've read, you have already decided it's time to let her go. I don't imagine either of you are going to change much after another conversation.

 

[red_rhino]

Life is too short, rid yourself (and your band members) of the negativity and be done with it. Let the chips fall where they may.

This. IME, ongoing negativity has a toxic effect on the rest of the band. Eventually, others will tire of it and may fault you for not handling it, deciding to move on themselves.

There are times when someone just isn’t a good fit for the group.

 

[JonathanPDX]

Internal issues are one thing, but they become a different animal when they bleed over into the public/business-facing side of things. Communication issues, trash talk, debates about logistics and songs and such are all part of the biz to some extent, but the audience never sees, and should never see, that side of things. Once that stuff becomes an issue that is visible to people outside the band you have a problem that isn't just a headache; it can cost you money.

Personally, I'd approach it with the band as two different issues. One is internal management and how to communicate respectfully and set boundaries everyone can agree on. Systems for selecting and approving songs, deadlines on approval of things like stage plots, agreements on what is and isn't respectful or acceptable in the band chat, etc. I'd see all those as issues you can fix, and if other members want to keep this person on then they will be more likely to be on board with some kind of plan to get everyone on the same page so you can work together with less friction.

If that's what everyone wants then you need clear boundaries around things like booking and management. Offering opinions on musical stuff is one thing but getting involved in money and business isn't the same deal and it's perfectly reasonable to set limits on other people's involvement there.

The on-stage stuff is a different matter. Even if the other members want to keep her on, I'd ask them how they feel about the on-stage drama and if they also see it as something that could negatively impact the band and, ultimately, your ability to book gigs, make money, and get re-hired by the folks you work for. If everyone agrees it's a problem then it's time to talk to her either one on one or as a group and set boundaries around acceptable on-stage behavior.

In the end it really comes down to how much of a democracy the band is. If it's your project and you built it and book it then you have every right to fire her. If it's a collective effort then you'll be better off getting a consensus than becoming the bad guy and watching the band fracture when you fire her and some of them feel they have to pick sides.

 

[Stinky_Fingers]

Internal issues are one thing, but they become a different animal when they bleed over into the public/business-facing side of things. Communication issues, trash talk, debates about logistics and songs and such are all part of the biz to some extent, but the audience never sees, and should never see, that side of things. Once that stuff becomes an issue that is visible to people outside the band you have a problem that isn't just a headache; it can cost you money.

Personally, I'd approach it with the band as two different issues. One is internal management and how to communicate respectfully and set boundaries everyone can agree on. Systems for selecting and approving songs, deadlines on approval of things like stage plots, agreements on what is and isn't respectful or acceptable in the band chat, etc. I'd see all those as issues you can fix, and if other members want to keep this person on then they will be more likely to be on board with some kind of plan to get everyone on the same page so you can work together with less friction.

If that's what everyone wants then you need clear boundaries around things like booking and management. Offering opinions on musical stuff is one thing but getting involved in money and business isn't the same deal and it's perfectly reasonable to set limits on other people's involvement there.

The on-stage stuff is a different matter. Even if the other members want to keep her on, I'd ask them how they feel about the on-stage drama and if they also see it as something that could negatively impact the band and, ultimately, your ability to book gigs, make money, and get re-hired by the folks you work for. If everyone agrees it's a problem then it's time to talk to her either one on one or as a group and set boundaries around acceptable on-stage behavior.

In the end it really comes down to how much of a democracy the band is. If it's your project and you built it and book it then you have every right to fire her. If it's a collective effort then you'll be better off getting a consensus than becoming the bad guy and watching the band fracture when you fire her and some of them feel they have to pick sides.

It’s not a democracy. I built it. The band is an LLC and I’m the sole proprietor. I book it, do the management and have funded the project to get off the ground.

 

[songwriter21]

It’s not a democracy. I built it. The band is an LLC and I’m the sole proprietor. I book it, do the management and have funded the project to get off the ground.

You're the sole proprietor of your business. Let her go.

 

[getBAK]

I think at the least you own the vocalist a private conversation. Honestly write yourself bulletpoints and make sure cover all of the items. Don't 'be kind' and let her off the hook.
It's in all of your best interest to give her an oppertunity to improve behaviour

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Sit down with her and go over the issues. If they don't improve in 2-3 weeks or whatever makes sense in your situation, let her go. Start lining up a replacement now.

 

[dune]

Here's the complicating factor, she works at the agency I am trying to sign with. She is not an agent, she is an administrative assistant, who basically sends the contracts and files them after the deal is made.

Depending on how she compartmentalizes her behavior (or doesn't), management at the agency might feel about her just as you do.

Where would you place the odds of her behavior changing enough for you to be happy keeping her around?

 

[Gopherbassist]

Time to use some soft skills. Is she having issues in her personal life? Problems at work? Emotional or psychological issues? Let her know you need to have a frank discussion with her.

You can't demand to know things outside the scope of your professional relationship, but let her know that if she is having outside issues, you, and potentially other band members, can offer a limited and apropriate amount of support.

If she has things she needs to work out, she has to communicate that to you as the band leader, and if apropriate or necessary, other band members. Let it be known that outside stresses are real, acknowledge them if she shares any. But also let her know that letting outside issues effect how she acts in rehersal, on stage, and in other band related contexts is not acceptable.

Make it clear that if she wants to have as much influence as she seems to want over creative issues, she needs to take on responsibilities as well. The former does not come without the latter. Explain that if she has opinions about creative elements (like the situation with the stage plot) she needs to bring them up in a timely manner, and that once finalized the can't be changed.

As for the sound guy's butt, yup, it sucks. But sometimes you have to deal with people at work who don't act or present themselves in ways you find apropriate. If his work is good, his rate is reasonable, and his gear is sufficient and well maintained, she has to deal. His grooming is his business, and unless clients are complaining, it has nothing to do with you. Them's the breaks.

Remember, soft skills. Don't come at this stuff aggressively, be open minded, listen honestly and receptively, acknowledge her point of view and opinions, be willing to give-to-get where it's reasonable. Set expectations, build understanding, make a plan to move forward.

Three weeks is a pretty short amount of time to have issues and be poised to drop the axe. At the same time, don't let this fester. It might be too late to be proactive, but the world isn't ending and you can sort things out if you make an effort.

 

[klyph]

A lot of this read like typical bad workplace stuff, you definitely should have let her go with the piano player, but what really caught my attention was this:

She's inexperienced, been playing in bands for about 2 years, she's played in the 1 band

I hope you have learned your lesson!

The only way I could see hiring someone for a WEDDING BAND with that little experience would be if they were at least 30 and had a CFO/CEO level position in their day job (or maybe an acting degree and a ton of stage experience).
Comporting oneself on stage is a thing, and if you’re gonna try and squeeze five figures a year out of it, you need to have it together!

Weddings can be rough, everyone sees dollar signs and tasteless crowds, but poopie can go wrong even at the high dollar ones and you still have to make it look easy. Two years in bars ain’t enough, I don’t care if you look like Charlize and sing like Aretha.

The agency thing is just noise, put the best band you can together, get it tight (or tight enough) and make some good video content.

The most this girl was gonna be was a shortcut (and headache) you don’t need.
You’re better than that.

EDIT: Buy your soundman a belt, a shirt, a jacket, and a tie. Measure him yourself if you have to, and make sure he wears them to strangers’ weddings.

 

[Fuzzbass]

From reading through your text, and the fact that you opened up here in the first place, I think you may already have made up your mind even if only unconsciously and are seeking validation.

Mostly agree with your thoughts. Overall it seems obvious that she has a terminal case of LSD, and I would immediately cut her loose if there were no complications. However there are a number of complications so I can totally understand why the OP might not have made up his mind. The biggest IMO is that the problematic bandmate works for the agency. Given her personality, I can easily see her going to the agents and throwing shade at the OP's band if she's fired (she'd tell the agents that she quit Because Reasons). Maybe the agents are aware of her antics, but maybe not - no way to tell. Many of us know Machiavellian manipulators who can poison the well without being obvious about it.