When to fire a band member?

[Pocket Dave]

In my opinion this is the worst thing she did and would warrant getting fired. You cannot conduct yourself like that in front of the audience.

THIS^^^

Yeah, several of us discussed that. Other members still didn’t think we cut her yet

That door shouldn’t have opened once money hit the table - allowing weigh-ins on a management decision set a bad precedent, especially in the transition phase from volunteer to pay. That's going to stick.

Yeah. Some tough conversations coming up, no way around it.

 

[gln1955]

Yeah, several of us discussed that. Other members still didn’t think we cut her yet

So she will know, sooner rather than later, that you are thinking of cutting her. If she had any maturity, she would see it as a wake up call to lose her attitude and stay in her lane. It seems more like this will just blow up and force her firing. Problem solved either way?

 

[bearhart74]

@Stinky_Fingers

The problem will not get resolved in here.

 

[Pep]

I said that a band we played in together had bad communication on stage. It was “[band] had bad communication on stage”. Thats verbatim too, no more, no less and I dropped it after that. I did apologize because she took it as an insult.

Perhaps she has a chip on her shoulder, but if that’s all it was, “FIRE HER NOW!

 

[Stinky_Fingers]

Perhaps she has a chip on her shoulder, but if that’s all it was, “FIRE HER NOW!

Yeah, that’s all it was. I’m definitely in that boat

 

[Pep]

Yeah, that’s all it was. I’m definitely in that boat

Be the BL, give her the walking papers she has earned and keep your band on track and focused. I think most of us would be interested in hearing how this goes with her.
I’m getting ready to start a new 8 member group. Hopefully my situation will be a bit better.

 

[TomB]

Seems you had somewhat of a hand in initiating the behavior. Hopefully you have learned something, so that you can avoid needlessly making similar mistakes in the future.

Your insensitive comment does not justify having to deal with what seems to be an endless problem. Her behavior must improve or she should be let go.

Given the structure and purpose of the band, you can definitely fire her. Make your own decision as far as when and if you should. Consider the value she brings, whether there is any chance you can mold in her into what you need/want, and how difficult it will be to replace here...or if replacing her is even necessary.

IMHO you should already be taking steps to rectify the situation, one way or the other. The relationship needs to be clarified as far as the role of employee VS employer. You also need to set and reinforce clear and reasonable expectations and standards. My feeling is people generally deserve a chance to correct behavior and also you should document the situation and whatever steps you have or will take to rectify it. If the she responds positively to counseling and gets better, then you can continue to employ her. If she does not get better, or perhaps gets even worse, document the results and whatever additional steps you take to try and improve her attitude and performance. Make it clear that here continue employment with you is contingent on her behavior.

When/if you let her go, be as professional as possible.

This ^^^. It’s called “taking corrective action”. The only thing I would add is a time frame for the improvement and a check back to assess how she’s doing. If she doesn’t buy into it, or if she accepts it but shows no improvement, then you know what you need to do. Make sure there are no surprises, and do it away from the other members. They’re not involved, and I wouldn’t even seek their opinions. You’re the boss.

 

[Pocket Dave]

This is why I don’t build "bands" anymore.

I book the dates, hire the players, keep it simple. If it turns into something that sticks, the pecking order’s already set - I’m the one bringing in the work and paying everyone. No confusion, no meetings about feelings.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I think this is where my bandmates are coming from. I think they are scared to replace her. She's a great singer, but we have 2 other great singers that we can fall back on for now, and there are tons of singers out there. Replacing her isn't a thing that I am worried about. The only thing that really concerns me at all is any blowback from other members and the agency.

Well... I hope it goes well. It seems to me you're acting on good faith and for the benefit of the band and it's people, so I would like to think there would be no blowback. At least nothing significant except perhaps some disappointment which honestly cannot be fully insulated against. I would like to think the band members might express some relief. At least ultimately. The agency? I think finding a way to get direct communication with the agent is the way to go, and I'd STRONGLY advise taking every reasonable effort to connect, directly.

You know, tigers don't change their stripes. I'll bet if this diva person is a pain in your ass, what are the chances this person is also a pain in the ass when she works at the agency? I'd say very strong chance. You and the booking agent might have some shared experience that's a good stepping stone to connection. Good luck with it.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Seems you had somewhat of a hand in initiating the behavior. Hopefully you have learned something, so that you can avoid needlessly making similar mistakes in the future.

This was my first thought.

Bad managers think that because they are the boss, everyone has to do things THEIR way. The reality is that a good boss learns to communicate with people in a way that brings out their best. Not saying that you have to take a raft of excrement forever, but it doesn't sound like the OP is very tactful.

If you can't figure out how to work with her, keep her until you sign with the agency then give her her walking papers.

 

[IanStephenson]

I am the band leader of a 10 piece...

You had me at 10 piece.

It's not like a three piece where cutting the guitarist/singer leaves a hole. You won't even know that they're gone (apart from the easier life, and slightly higher pay). In a larger band everyone needs to stay in lane/keep their head down and do their job, or its going to be a mess.

And typically the best time to fire some one is a few weeks BEFORE you post on a forum asking if you should fire them. By the time you get to this stage you already know what you should have done, and now you're just delaying the inevitable. Moving quicker might have kept your piano player in the picture.

 

[Turnaround]

Unprofessional behaviour reflects on the band as a whole and cannot be tolerated. It has to stop - by co-operation or by amputation.

 

[Stinky_Fingers]

You had me at 10 piece.

It's not like a three piece where cutting the guitarist/singer leaves a hole. You won't even know that they're gone (apart from the easier life, and slightly higher pay). In a larger band everyone needs to stay in lane/keep their head down and do their job, or its going to be a mess.

And typically the best time to fire some one is a few weeks BEFORE you post on a forum asking if you should fire them. By the time you get to this stage you already know what you should have done, and now you're just delaying the inevitable. Moving quicker might have kept your piano player in the picture.

Piano player quit months ago and has already been replaced. He didn't quit because of this recent behavior. You're definitely right, we won't even notice and I should let her go.

 

[wissler]

I have minimal experience gigging or the music business. However, I have managed people in other professional sectors, and what I've learned over the years is an indicator of future behavior is past behavior. She has an outburst on stage, fired the next day. Period. Fullstop. That kind of toxic publicity new bands can definitely do without. And its very plausible to speculate she's just as much of doucheflute at the agency where she spends her days. Let her go ASAP and enjoy your project. Good luck.

 

[mambo4]

She is a great singer, but she's an absolute pain in the ass and too negative for me.

Great singer: +1
pain in the ass: -1
Sum: 0

 

[Mystic Michael]

At what point should I fire her?

Uh, how about last week?

 

[Bassdirty]

Is she Hot?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I am the band leader of a 10 piece wedding band, 3 piece vocalists, 3 piece horn section and 4 piece rhythm section. We have 1 member that has been regularly acting out over the course of the last 3 weeks. She is one of the singers and her attitude has been very negative. It started when I made an insensitive comment in the group chat about a band that I played in, that she is in having bad communication on stage (in my defense, they absolutely do have bad communication on stage. It would be better to say that there is no communication on stage). Cue the emotional outburst. I get it, I did apologize and speak to her.

Each decision I have made has been contentious, but not a single other member has had an issue. I've even talked with each member to double check. The week of our first gigs, she wants to change the stage plot, after I made it and sent it to the tech. She wants to switch to in ears - not everyone has in ears (the project is young and I am going to have the band fund them when it starts making money). On the gig, she is acting out on stage, speaking to members unprofessionally, and was visibly angry on stage to audience members because the sound guy was not great. Then the way she talks about the sound guy in the chat is ridiculous. He's an older guy who had plumbers crack - her exact words when I told the band we needed to be respectful was "I prefer he not have his ass out in my presence".

Recently, she is trying to fight rehearsal plans for songs that she is not even the lead vocalist because she doesn't think we should do them (the vocalist that is the lead on those songs asked for that artist). She wants to micromanage my booking of gigs, but when I've asked her to do things that would have given her the power to make decisions, she won't do it. The attitude is out of hand. The thing is, if I call her to set it straight, I see it as a lose-lose. I can apologize again for being insensitive, but that's what she wants and I'm not giving in, I've already apologized and she is going to love it if I am subservient at all. If I call and set boundaries, she's going to use it as ammo to explode or throw another tantrum. I am at the point where I am ready to let her go. She's even threatened to quit, even though she really isn't going to because who makes threats and doesn't follow through?

I think the problem is that she doesn't like others making decisions. We had an issue with a piano player who quit who I asked for help on creative decisions, and he was helping call some shots. She didn't like that, she said something to me, I said something to him and he quit. I think at it's core, it's an issue with authority, and completely overvaluing herself. She acts like she's famous because she has a following in a couple bars that really aren't desirable places to play (think like biker bars, rock community type stuff). She's inexperienced, been playing in bands for about 2 years, she's played in the 1 band, meanwhile I've been gigging for nearly 20 years, and ran my own booking agency for several years and have played in big bands.

Here's the complicating factor, she works at the agency I am trying to sign with. She is not an agent, she is an administrative assistant, who basically sends the contracts and files them after the deal is made. Other members are not ready to let her go. The drummer will be fine if I do, but he doesn't want to yet. Another singer thinks the talent outweighs the issues. She is a great singer, but she's an absolute pain in the ass and too negative for me. I already have a back up plan and I think there would be no issues in the band if she is gone. At what point should I fire her?

Life is too short for this. I would be looking for a replacement, like now. I can assure you there will be no peace going forward. As for the booking agency, I would discuss your intentions with the owner, because she is probably having issues there as well. Anyway you want to say that if possible she have nothing to do with your band, and if you get any feedback negative feedback from venues that came from this person, it will be serious.

 

[micguy]

A 10 piece wedding band is a business - maybe not your livelihood, maybe it is, but on whatever level it is, it's a business. If someone is not working out, you have a discussion with them about it as soon as practical (not on stage, not on the phone, not in a text - in person, one on one (no ganging up) face to face). This is standard stuff for any business management relationship.

If the two of you can talk amicably about it, talk about what happened in a civil manner, and come to a resolution on how to proceed, you proceed (with the caveat that you will be watching to see if the plan works). If you can't have an amicable chat, or come to an agreement/plan in that first meeting, you thank them for the time they have spent with your band, and you continue the business without them. You are the boss of a business - things will run smoother if you act like one and make timely, rational decisions. If you don't have experience in that position, get some training on running a small business and/or team management. Bands that are a business (yours is) and run as a business will do much better than those that don't have decisive leadership.

One of the surprising things to me in my career was the reaction of some of the folks that reported to me after I let one of their colleagues go - you expect that people will be unsettled by having someone they work with fired, but if that person isn't pulling their weight, or is making trouble, letting that person go will actually improve morale of the rest of the team.

The "agency issue" is a red herring - if you have a band that performs well regularly, a good agency will want you. Right now, you don't have that. Make the band as good as you can, an agency will want you. If the trouble persists, a good agency will (even if they've already "signed" you) let you go, or they'll stop giving you good assignments - if a band starts to reflect badly on an agency, the gigs they were getting for you will become scarce to non-existent. Agencies are gatekeepers - if you perform well, the gate will be open, if you don't perform, you'll be stuck behind the gate.

 

[Topkat13]

Could we get her side of the story regarding you?