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When will they learn?

So there is a lil music festival we are doing on the property that I live on up near school. And today I was helping the soundman for the main stage (whos also a drummer for one of the acts) bring all the sound stuff into the main house. I mentioned to him "hey dude this is Alot of stuff....kinda overkill lol"

And we proceeded to have a convo on the dangers of loud shows. I said how it seems every band out there thinks playing way too loudly is the way to go...despite how irresposible it is to the fans you are making go deaf or get tinnitus....and despite how the music would sound better if not so loud.

Then he goes on to say how its not decibels thats the issue, its how good the equipment is and the frequencies being used, and how well the mixing is. Which is true to a point, but loud anything will **** up your hearing and he just didnt seem to understand me. He just went on to say "as a soundman I like it turned down, but as a drummer i want it turned up"

I have ranted about this before, and its a shame that so many people try and make excuses for loud music and ignore the problems until its too late and they are either deaf, or with a big bout of tinnitus.

Everyone in my band wears plugs, and were all mid 20s, so still pretty young. But gosh my age group is stubborned. Luckily Ive had ear infections before and tinnitus, so due to my paranoid nature and love of music I now always take care of my ears.

Its just a shame that this guy is a stubborn sound man who controls what people hear and is in direct control of their hearing health when hes mixing =/ He even game me the tired argument of how people like rock music loud....um I know they do....but the bassist shouldnt be rattling the place so hard with an open rung out note that people go outside. People have no idea how to play proper enjoyable live music.

/rant
 
I liken this to extended use of strobe lights in small clubs. One evening the lighting " engineer" strobed the whole club white and black at 1 sec intervals for close to a minute. Now I know why it's used as torture technique.
And ya you're right there is loud and then there is ear damaging loud. Unfortunately most people don't think much about it, especially with small children - any thing over 70 db and you're gonna start to ruin their ears for life. Keep this in mind if you take children to family friendly gigs, jazz in the park etc.
 
any thing over 70 db and you're gonna start to ruin their ears for life.

Woah.

85dB is the minimum level that can cause ear damage, and even then it's only after prolonged (6hrs or more) exposure...

you need four hours of a constant 90dB to cause permanent damage, two hours of 95dB.

Anything over that level, then the plugs should be in IMO!

Without earplugs, anything over one hour of 100dB, will cause damage, 15 minutes of 110dB (15 minutes is a set for a lot of bands), anything above 115dB is considered to be 'instant hearing damage', even though the official pain threshold is twice that;125dB.

70dB is roughly the volume of a flushing toilet if you stand right next to it.

This is all continuous, of course, peak values are very different and, unless they're enormous, not really important.

Hearing damage at shows really is an issue, and I agree that a lot of venues are simply too loud. That said though, I would be dissapointed to turn up to a gig only to find that the sound guy was limiting the system to 90dB; that level will struggle to keep up with an acoustic kit if the drummer hit's 'em hard.
 
Ugh. Wear earplugs if it's too loud. Simple as that. FWIW there ARE genres around now using massive volume with the intent of creating a physical element to the live show that is well beyond most other bands. Stoner rock, doom, drone, all these kind of bands are for the most part all about high volume for this reason. This idea that a band has any responsibility for their fans hearing health is absurd. No one is forcing anyone to stay in a room/not wear earplugs or go see a loud band in general. A friend of mine likened seeing my band to getting a full body massage for an hour. That's the point of it for us at least. Of course, some just plain like it loud and could care less about the physical element it brings. That's fine too IMO. Last show we played, the other bands on the bill we're great and all, but the soundguy had them so quiet on stage and in the PA that all you could hear is people talking over them. We tell them just mic the drums and the bass will come from the stage and it was way louder than all the other bands and the PA. Not everyone is playing music for people to chit chat over and too many soundguys try to force some lame-ass minimum volume level on every band so they all end up sounding the same. It sucks. Just let bands put on the show they want to.

When I saw the band Sunn play a couple years ago, I made the mistake of not wearing earplugs. They play around 120-125 db's on stage, with PA support for subs/vocals/keys equally as loud. Inside a 400-500 person capacity bar/venue. For an hour and a half the whole building was shaking, I could feel pressure on my chest and my eyeballs would shake against my eyelids when I closed my eyes. Absolutely the most intense thing I've ever experienced. It was great. It was also no one's fault but my own that my hearing was messed up from that show.


/counter rant
 
I was experimenting with an SPL meter and measured a vacuum cleaner standing right over it as you would be while using it........85-88 db

I know if a band was playing and the vacuum was on you wouldn't even hear the vacuum.
Doesn't take much to damage your hearing.
 

+10dB is a percieved doubling in volume.

/counter rant

+1. No-one makes you stay in loud environments, and if you are working in one then you should get some earplugs. Even the $0.99 ones will save your hearing...

I was experimenting with an SPL meter and measured a vacuum cleaner standing right over it as you would be while using it........85-88 db

I know if a band was playing and the vacuum was on you wouldn't even hear the vacuum.
Doesn't take much to damage your hearing.

True, but you would need to be vacuuming for eight hours straight. I would be very dissapointed to turn up to a gig and find that the sound guy was running it at 90dB.

If I'm on sound at a show, then I'll run it at 95-100dB, and it's a good volume for the most part; I've never run a show that's more than two hours, and I've never run a show where it's 90-100dB for the entire duration.

IME most complaints about the sound being 'too loud' are actually due to an overly harsh guitar or snare tone, rather than the volume actually being too high.
 
Been playing bass for 14 years. Been an avid gun nut my whole life. Been a helicopter mechanic for 10 years. I'm 28. I have taken every precaution to protect my ears at work and in my hobbies. I wear hearing protection all day at work and whenever I'm at rehearsal/gigs/concerts/shooting/anything loud. I am so incredibly thankful I was sensitive to loud noises as a kid and developed a habit of protecting my hearing. I don't even think about it anymore but a set of ear plugs is as common in my pocket as my wallet. Hearing is just as precious as sight. Once it's gone, it's gone forever. Some people will never learn, but those of us that do, will enjoy birds singing in the morning at 75 when they're changing their hearing aid batteries.
 
I guess nobody who plays bass also cuts their own grass.
Even WITH earplugs a lawnmower is going to do more damage than a well-mixed rock band.
The key term is "well mixed", because bad mixes do more damage than good ones at the same level.

I've been in this business for 30 years and am only experiencing loss of high frequencies that affect my life in the last 6 months.

To the OP--Volume isn't about the people in front of the speakers, because they are making their own choices. It's also about the people in back who paid the same $$$ and expect to actually hear (and feel) the band.
Nobody is putting a gun to their heads, and I'm pretty sure that if a big name act came out and tried to adhere to YOUR standards, it would be their final tour.


Be careful, but don't be a pansy about it.
 
When I saw the band Sunn play a couple years ago, I made the mistake of not wearing earplugs. They play around 120-125 db's on stage, with PA support for subs/vocals/keys equally as loud. Inside a 400-500 person capacity bar/venue. For an hour and a half the whole building was shaking, I could feel pressure on my chest and my eyeballs would shake against my eyelids when I closed my eyes. Absolutely the most intense thing I've ever experienced. It was great. It was also no one's fault but my own that my hearing was messed up from that show.
/counter rant

When they played in Poland, everyone entering the venue got a set of earplugs. So even super loud bands recommend using earplugs.
 
Metal Matt said:
Ugh. Wear earplugs if it's too loud. Simple as that. FWIW there ARE genres around now using massive volume with the intent of creating a physical element to the live show that is well beyond most other bands. Stoner rock, doom, drone, all these kind of bands are for the most part all about high volume for this reason. This idea that a band has any responsibility for their fans hearing health is absurd. No one is forcing anyone to stay in a room/not wear earplugs or go see a loud band in general. A friend of mine likened seeing my band to getting a full body massage for an hour. That's the point of it for us at least. Of course, some just plain like it loud and could care less about the physical element it brings. That's fine too IMO. Last show we played, the other bands on the bill we're great and all, but the soundguy had them so quiet on stage and in the PA that all you could hear is people talking over them. We tell them just mic the drums and the bass will come from the stage and it was way louder than all the other bands and the PA. Not everyone is playing music for people to chit chat over and too many soundguys try to force some lame-ass minimum volume level on every band so they all end up sounding the same. It sucks. Just let bands put on the show they want to.

When I saw the band Sunn play a couple years ago, I made the mistake of not wearing earplugs. They play around 120-125 db's on stage, with PA support for subs/vocals/keys equally as loud. Inside a 400-500 person capacity bar/venue. For an hour and a half the whole building was shaking, I could feel pressure on my chest and my eyeballs would shake against my eyelids when I closed my eyes. Absolutely the most intense thing I've ever experienced. It was great. It was also no one's fault but my own that my hearing was messed up from that show.

/counter rant


You have a responsibility towards the general safety of people around you that has nothing to do with music, for instance the electrician that wired your venue doesn't expect you to bring along a pair of insulated gloves to connect your equipment, you know that electricity kills but you trust that he does his job in a way that wont hurt you. Others expect the same from you.

Counter counter rant
 
I guess nobody who plays bass also cuts their own grass.
Even WITH earplugs a lawnmower is going to do more damage than a well-mixed rock band.
The key term is "well mixed", because bad mixes do more damage than good ones at the same level.

I've been in this business for 30 years and am only experiencing loss of high frequencies that affect my life in the last 6 months.

To the OP--Volume isn't about the people in front of the speakers, because they are making their own choices. It's also about the people in back who paid the same $$$ and expect to actually hear (and feel) the band.
Nobody is putting a gun to their heads, and I'm pretty sure that if a big name act came out and tried to adhere to YOUR standards, it would be their final tour.


Be careful, but don't be a pansy about it.

BS. Some of the best shows and most filled concerts I have been at were for acts who dont blow your head off with loud music.

I have been to a ton of shows where people in the freaking back of the place have complained about the loud sound.

Enjoy the tinnitus my friend. Mind you people have committed suicide over the more severe forms of that affliction.
 
You have a responsibility towards the general safety of people around you that has nothing to do with music, for instance the electrician that wired your venue doesn't expect you to bring along a pair of insulated gloves to connect your equipment, you know that electricity kills but you trust that he does his job in a way that wont hurt you. Others expect the same from you.

Counter counter rant

this
 
I guess nobody who plays bass also cuts their own grass.
Even WITH earplugs a lawnmower is going to do more damage than a well-mixed rock band.
Why don't you tell us exactly what you mean by well mixed then. It seems to be such an important concept.

The key term is "well mixed", because bad mixes do more damage than good ones at the same level.
Bad mixes doing more damage doesn't mean good mixes don't cause any damage.

I'm afraid you have just encountered a massive fail on the internet.

Randy
 
So there is a lil music festival we are doing on the property that I live on up near school. And today I was helping the soundman for the main stage (whos also a drummer for one of the acts) bring all the sound stuff into the main house. I mentioned to him "hey dude this is Alot of stuff....kinda overkill lol"

And we proceeded to have a convo on the dangers of loud shows. I said how it seems every band out there thinks playing way too loudly is the way to go...despite how irresposible it is to the fans you are making go deaf or get tinnitus....and despite how the music would sound better if not so loud.

Then he goes on to say how its not decibels thats the issue, its how good the equipment is and the frequencies being used, and how well the mixing is. Which is true to a point, but loud anything will **** up your hearing and he just didnt seem to understand me. He just went on to say "as a soundman I like it turned down, but as a drummer i want it turned up"

I have ranted about this before, and its a shame that so many people try and make excuses for loud music and ignore the problems until its too late and they are either deaf, or with a big bout of tinnitus.

Everyone in my band wears plugs, and were all mid 20s, so still pretty young. But gosh my age group is stubborned. Luckily Ive had ear infections before and tinnitus, so due to my paranoid nature and love of music I now always take care of my ears.

Its just a shame that this guy is a stubborn sound man who controls what people hear and is in direct control of their hearing health when hes mixing =/ He even game me the tired argument of how people like rock music loud....um I know they do....but the bassist shouldnt be rattling the place so hard with an open rung out note that people go outside. People have no idea how to play proper enjoyable live music.

/rant

When will you learn that not everyone (the vast majority) don't feel the same way you do about it?
 
trouble is, the "vast majority" are starting to get hearing loss, both from years of loud-ass rock concerts and years of blasting their ears with those ipod buds all day long.

there's gonna be a whole bunch of deaf senior citizens in a few decades!

oh, and googling "tinnitus + suicide" is very revealing!
 
When will you learn that not everyone (the vast majority) don't feel the same way you do about it?

When did I ever say everyone held my opinion. The purpose of this thread was to see what others thought. At least I know smart musicians care about being able to play and hear music for as long as possible.

one word:
abstinence
don't like the loud rock show? don't go.
two more:
ear plugs
wear 'em, even if just standing next to a drum kit when playing,
without a pa.
problem solved.

Problem is that even with earplugs some dummies play way toooo loud that you risk damage even with them in. And shame on those bands and night clubs that do this. It will suck for them later in life and I will laugh xD.
 

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