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When Your Wrists Let You Down

#181
This is my first post - but a topic I just came across while browsing the forums and feel particularly strong about. I have many of these same problems - caused by too much computer use at work, but also affecting my guitar/bass playing. If you spend > 1 year feeling dissatisfied with any of the treatments and/or with the doctors you see: READ THIS BOOK

Sarno, John E. (1998). The Mindbody Prescription: Healing the Body, Healing the Pain

It may not work for you, or you may not agree with what he says, but if the book does resonate with you it will help immensely.

Good luck
 
#182
Only recently have I really been concerned about keeping the health of my wrists. With that said, I have been reflecting on my practicing routines/technique and I think my main concern is overusing the tendons in my fretting hand.

I do practice a lot of scales, arpeggios, etc. and I have been maxing out at 4 notes per 130 bpm (around 520 technically)... I love playing fast melodies but I'm starting to think that practicing too much at this speed is going to cause trouble in the future in terms of health. I sometimes practice that fast for at least an hour everyday excluding some exercises at relatively slower speeds (for another hour) .

Anyone think that there is such a thing at practicing too much? I really don't want to loose my current speed or fluidity in playing but then again, I don't want to get an injury... this is pretty tough for me to consider. I'd appreciate if I can get some feedback on this.

EDIT: Also considering lighter strings. Just hope that I will won't be disappointed in the tone or depth.
 
#183
I just started playing aagain a few months ago after an 18 year hiatus and started to develop extensor tendinitis. I caught it pretty quickly and went to a sports doctor fast. Now I go to physical theraoy and started a daily set of ecercises. I doubt I'll have to go to physical therapy more than a few times once I get my own routine going.

My sports doctor gave me this ant-inflammatory gell called Valtoren, which is used in place of pills. It really works. I also ice up my wrist and forwarm for about 20 minutes right after playing. This plus a few simple daily excercises for 20 minutes a day is doing me a lot of good, and the problem has stopped. I can't say this will work for everyone, but it has worked for me.
 
#184
Hi Sal,

I feel you pain. I had a severe case of tendonitis in my left hand and wrist about 18 years ago. It took 6 months off, another year of slowly building my hands back up to just be able to play normal songs. It might be time to be realistic about this reoccuring issue. First, how much time are you playing, and by chops what do you mean? Are you shooting for a serious set of chops, or just enough to play the tunes? I know that sounds like a strange question, but there is a difference in hand stress from playing a normal tune to doing serious, chop oriented playing if you follow me?

Also, if you are serious about playing bass you might want to make a visit to a Hand Doctor. They might be able to help you through therapy, or possibly through surgery. They have gotten a fair amount better at the small hand surgeries in the time frame you mentioned.

Mark Koelsch- Bassist and hand injury survivor
 
#185
Xeperu said:
Only recently have I really been concerned about keeping the health of my wrists. With that said, I have been reflecting on my practicing routines/technique and I think my main concern is overusing the tendons in my fretting hand.

I do practice a lot of scales, arpeggios, etc. and I have been maxing out at 4 notes per 130 bpm (around 520 technically)... I love playing fast melodies but I'm starting to think that practicing too much at this speed is going to cause trouble in the future in terms of health. I sometimes practice that fast for at least an hour everyday excluding some exercises at relatively slower speeds (for another hour) .

Anyone think that there is such a thing at practicing too much? I really don't want to loose my current speed or fluidity in playing but then again, I don't want to get an injury... this is pretty tough for me to consider. I'd appreciate if I can get some feedback on this.

EDIT: Also considering lighter strings. Just hope that I will won't be disappointed in the tone or depth.
Click to expand...

yes, you can practice too much. I used to practice the way you describe for several hours a day. I was really fast, and pushing to be faster all the time. I was playing in a band playing what would be called neo-classical metal, and I was trying to match the speed of my guitarist to play really fast unison/hamony lines.

So I was taking an hour lesson every week and the required practice for that, the practice out side of band practice for our tunes, plus 2-3 band rehearsals a week. I was playng fast all the time, but after about a year of that I broke down. Bad pain in my left hand, which I stupidly tried to play through. I developed bad tenonitis, which took a long time to recover from.

If I were you, I would limit my really fast playing to every other day. Warm up carefully and slowly, and then when you practice the fast stuff limit your time to say a half hour of fast playing. On the inbetween days I would say do not play, or if you must play, play some slow tunes just to keep loose. Remember, playing bass (or any other instrument) is not really different than working out. Your body needs time to recuperate from intense exercise...to not give it the rest it needs is to invite injury.

Mark Koelsch
 
#186
markkoelsch said:
yes, you can practice too much. I used to practice the way you describe for several hours a day. I was really fast, and pushing to be faster all the time. I was playing in a band playing what would be called neo-classical metal, and I was trying to match the speed of my guitarist to play really fast unison/hamony lines.

So I was taking an hour lesson every week and the required practice for that, the practice out side of band practice for our tunes, plus 2-3 band rehearsals a week. I was playng fast all the time, but after about a year of that I broke down. Bad pain in my left hand, which I stupidly tried to play through. I developed bad tenonitis, which took a long time to recover from.

If I were you, I would limit my really fast playing to every other day. Warm up carefully and slowly, and then when you practice the fast stuff limit your time to say a half hour of fast playing. On the inbetween days I would say do not play, or if you must play, play some slow tunes just to keep loose. Remember, playing bass (or any other instrument) is not really different than working out. Your body needs time to recuperate from intense exercise...to not give it the rest it needs is to invite injury.

Mark Koelsch
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. Makes sense though, I wouldn't work out on my pecs for 2 hours. I used to work out a lot too, so I guess that was replaced by having an instrument in my hand. I wasn't nearly this fast almost a year ago and I've pushing myself to get on par with my favorite metal bassists. Now that I am here might as well play it smart.

I wonder what other metal bassists like Alex Webster or Steve Digorgio would say about practicing time frames.
 
#187
Xeperu said:
Thanks for the feedback. Makes sense though, I wouldn't work out on my pecs for 2 hours. I used to work out a lot too, so I guess that was replaced by having an instrument in my hand. I wasn't nearly this fast almost a year ago and I've pushing myself to get on par with my favorite metal bassists. Now that I am here might as well play it smart.

I wonder what other metal bassists like Alex Webster or Steve Digorgio would say about practicing time frames.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what they would say. There are some flks who can just play all the time. I had the opportunity to talk to Victor Wooten and Stve Bailey a couple of hours before a clinic they did. I was playing in the music store, and all of a suddenthere they were listening to me. We started talking, and this was maybe a few of years after the tendonitis, and I mentioned this to them. They both practiced all the time when they were younger and developing, but especially Steve Bailey said that he does not practice nearly as much as he used to. Not that he does not want to but that time for business takes it up. It makes him focus on the quality of the practice, which I would argue is much more important than volume of practice.
 
#188
I didn't read all the post, so pardon me if I'm repeating prior opinions/advice. I assume we are talking about your fretboard hand. How low do you wear your bass? If you keep it at a "Rock Star" level, you are forcing your wrist into flexion and exacerbating the problem. Pull your bass up as high as possible and you will put your wrist in a more neutral position. You might look like a tool, but if it will allow you to keep playing...

I feel your pain. I was in the middle of a "tour" when I developed tendonitis in my right hand. My technique is to play "above" the strings; therefore, my wrist is at a nearly 90 degree angle. I would literally be in tears by the end of each show (it's not very Rock-n-Roll to cry).
 
#189
mike1762 said:
I didn't read all the post, so pardon me if I'm repeating prior opinions/advice. I assume we are talking about your fretboard hand. How low do you wear your bass? If you keep it at a "Rock Star" level, you are forcing your wrist into flexion and exacerbating the problem. Pull your bass up as high as possible and you will put your wrist in a more neutral position. You might look like a tool, but if it will allow you to keep playing...

I feel your pain. I was in the middle of a "tour" when I developed tendonitis in my right hand. My technique is to play "above" the strings; therefore, my wrist is at a nearly 90 degree angle. I would literally be in tears by the end of each show (it's not very Rock-n-Roll to cry).
Click to expand...

Mike, in my case it was my left, fretboard hand. I wear my bass pretty high, and always did. It felt better that way, and I have never really seen anybody play really well with a bass strung super low. My injury was purely related to playing too much, too fast, and too often. My technique is pretty good...wrist a straight as possible, good thumb position on the neck.

The right thing is a little different. You are sayng that the top of your handle is perpendicular to the strings? That would be painful in a hurry, I would think. Iwould think flattening your hand by say 45 degrees would help a bunch.

Mark
 
#190
thescientist said:
This is my first post - but a topic I just came across while browsing the forums and feel particularly strong about. I have many of these same problems - caused by too much computer use at work, but also affecting my guitar/bass playing. If you spend > 1 year feeling dissatisfied with any of the treatments and/or with the doctors you see: READ THIS BOOK

Sarno, John E. (1998). The Mindbody Prescription: Healing the Body, Healing the Pain

It may not work for you, or you may not agree with what he says, but if the book does resonate with you it will help immensely.

Good luck
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reference to the book.
 
#192
Xeperu said:
Only recently have I really been concerned about keeping the health of my wrists. With that said, I have been reflecting on my practicing routines/technique and I think my main concern is overusing the tendons in my fretting hand.

I do practice a lot of scales, arpeggios, etc. and I have been maxing out at 4 notes per 130 bpm (around 520 technically)... I love playing fast melodies but I'm starting to think that practicing too much at this speed is going to cause trouble in the future in terms of health. I sometimes practice that fast for at least an hour everyday excluding some exercises at relatively slower speeds (for another hour) .

Anyone think that there is such a thing at practicing too much? I really don't want to loose my current speed or fluidity in playing but then again, I don't want to get an injury... this is pretty tough for me to consider. I'd appreciate if I can get some feedback on this.

EDIT: Also considering lighter strings. Just hope that I will won't be disappointed in the tone or depth.
Click to expand...


I can only relate my own experiences with this issue so others may disagree - but yes I think one can practice too much. Especially if extensive playing is combined with bad technique and/or physical limitations - a recipe for disaster. If one is excessively straining the wrists due to bad technique or physical limitations (like small wrists that have tight carpal tunnel openings placing more pressure on tendons and nerves), then every minute of playing potentially creates damage if these situations are not addressed through altering techniques. The term repetitive motion injury is just that. So it is really important to listen to our bodies. If you start to develop pain, swelling, loss of range of motion, excessive stiffness, etc. be careful not to make the situation worse by "playing through discomfort" causing a chronic condition. Proper warm-up, stretching, and in some cases not playing for periods of time may be required to go forward without RMI. Seeking the help of all available resources on the topic is of great value IMO.

Light gauge strings have been the only way I have been able to keep playing regularly. I use TI Jazz Rounds (.43-.89) on nearly all my basses (love them) and DR Hi-Beams on the others in the .40-.95 gauge. There are tone differences to be sure but I found adjusting my technique to lighter playing and amp changes resulted in tones I am satisfied with. It did take some time to arrive at those compromises. :bassist:
 
#193
jhan said:
My sports doctor gave me this ant-inflammatory gell called Valtoren, which is used in place of pills. It really works. I also ice up my wrist and forwarm for about 20 minutes right after playing. This plus a few simple daily excercises for 20 minutes a day is doing me a lot of good, and the problem has stopped. I can't say this will work for everyone, but it has worked for me.
Click to expand...

Excellent news! Having knowledge about the situation should allow you to play carefully to keep the inflammation in check. Best of luck and keep us posted on your progress.
 
#194
markkoelsch said:
Hi Sal,

I feel you pain. I had a severe case of tendonitis in my left hand and wrist about 18 years ago. It took 6 months off, another year of slowly building my hands back up to just be able to play normal songs. It might be time to be realistic about this reoccuring issue. First, how much time are you playing, and by chops what do you mean? Are you shooting for a serious set of chops, or just enough to play the tunes? I know that sounds like a strange question, but there is a difference in hand stress from playing a normal tune to doing serious, chop oriented playing if you follow me?

Also, if you are serious about playing bass you might want to make a visit to a Hand Doctor. They might be able to help you through therapy, or possibly through surgery. They have gotten a fair amount better at the small hand surgeries in the time frame you mentioned.

Mark Koelsch- Bassist and hand injury survivor
Click to expand...

Hi Mark. Thanks for the reply. To answer your question my goal has been to regain my previous playing abilities, though I am realistic to admit that may never happen. Over the past year I have transitioned from just being able to make it through a tune at first to now being able to largely play whatever I want including using some more active chops. I have accomplished that by working with a hand specialist, careful stretching exercises, switching to extra light gauge strings, and limiting my overall playing time. The biggest challenge I face is not straining my wrists with non-playing activities. Unfortunately, one of the biggest problems is carrying equipment or heavy objects in general. This includes my bass amps and cabinets. I play regularly at church since all I need to do is bring a bass guitar (we have a bass amp at the church). I recently declined 2 offers to join bands since it would involve dragging my full bass rig to events (4x10, 1x18 cabs plus rack gear). I knew in a short time my wrists would be shot from moving the equipment around. I hope some day to regain that ability as well, but so far I am not there. :)
 
#195
mike1762 said:
I didn't read all the post, so pardon me if I'm repeating prior opinions/advice. I assume we are talking about your fretboard hand. How low do you wear your bass? If you keep it at a "Rock Star" level, you are forcing your wrist into flexion and exacerbating the problem. Pull your bass up as high as possible and you will put your wrist in a more neutral position. You might look like a tool, but if it will allow you to keep playing...

I feel your pain. I was in the middle of a "tour" when I developed tendonitis in my right hand. My technique is to play "above" the strings; therefore, my wrist is at a nearly 90 degree angle. I would literally be in tears by the end of each show (it's not very Rock-n-Roll to cry).
Click to expand...

Excellent points. Adjusting instrument height for maximum wrist comfort is essential.
 
#196
"""I recently declined 2 offers to join bands since it would involve dragging my full bass rig to events (4x10, 1x18 cabs plus rack gear). I knew in a short time my wrists would be shot from moving the equipment around."""

You sure you need that much equipment? I thought so too until I switched to a Genz Shuttle, and a light 112 cabinet. Certainly if you are playing through a PA you don't need that much. Get a single 112 up on a stand by your ear and let the sound guy worry about your FOH.
 
#198
sal4bass said:
I can only relate my own experiences with this issue so others may disagree - but yes I think one can practice too much. Especially if extensive playing is combined with bad technique and/or physical limitations - a recipe for disaster. If one is excessively straining the wrists due to bad technique or physical limitations (like small wrists that have tight carpal tunnel openings placing more pressure on tendons and nerves), then every minute of playing potentially creates damage if these situations are not addressed through altering techniques. The term repetitive motion injury is just that. So it is really important to listen to our bodies. If you start to develop pain, swelling, loss of range of motion, excessive stiffness, etc. be careful not to make the situation worse by "playing through discomfort" causing a chronic condition. Proper warm-up, stretching, and in some cases not playing for periods of time may be required to go forward without RMI. Seeking the help of all available resources on the topic is of great value IMO.

Light gauge strings have been the only way I have been able to keep playing regularly. I use TI Jazz Rounds (.43-.89) on nearly all my basses (love them) and DR Hi-Beams on the others in the .40-.95 gauge. There are tone differences to be sure but I found adjusting my technique to lighter playing and amp changes resulted in tones I am satisfied with. It did take some time to arrive at those compromises. :bassist:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. What prompted me to really dig into the health of hands is when I injured it on friday during moshpit falling awkwardly. I haven't attempted by regular practice routine since.

However, my hand has gotten back to normal. Even after not practicing for about 3-4 days I found that I was still able to do my arpeggios and speed runs even better after taking that break. That makes more confident in thinking that I will not lose my speed if I tone things down.

So, I have effectively cut my routine in half. I will try practicing for an hour and concentrating not to rush through it while taking consistent breaks. I think the fact that I was practicing for 2-3 hours a day, consecutively, has hindered my playing in a way because I simply would not give enough time for my hand to reconcile my routine. I feel the difference now, and I'm almost grateful that I got that injury because it helped me open my eyes to what I am potentially doing to myself.

In regards to bass height etc. I started out with terrible technique (for me). Hung my bass really low, used really stubborn factory strings and so on. But after awhile, altering the height dramatically increased comfort and precision in my fretting hand.
 
#199
Bump. I was doing a lot of research on muscles and how they react in the hand and found a vid (). As explained, the muscles on the back of your foream (extensor, I think) are not regularly exercised when fretting or whatever.

Due to this, the muscles on the inside right below the wrist (finger flexor muscles) compensate for all the work being done and thus causing an imbalance in the the way the tension is distributed. I found this very interesting and never heard of that before but it makes perfect sense.

So, this made me very interested. However, the vid is actually advertising a product so I am prompted to customize my own exercises for the extensor muscles.
 
#200
wow, i've read all 10 pages.. a WEALTH of information in all of them! I'm 16 years old, no wrist problems thank to god but i have tendonitis in my right knee above the knee cap. Playing linebacker for high school i get flare ups every day in practice. Usually have to take anti-inflamatories before each practice just to get through them, then i go home take a nice hot bath and stretch.

One this this thread has taught me is now that the season in done i'm going to see a doctor next week to start getting it treated. Another problem i have is that my knee pops whenever i extend it, its not from tendonitis but i'm checking that out too. Now onto the real reason why i wasnted to post.

~Sal, and Sal, not only have you guys scared the crap out of me because i'm only 16 and hope to be playing for the rest of my life, i now stretch before i play just to be preventitive, but the thing that has really moved me and i feel has really started to take an effect on me is how much you guys are willing to go to continue to play bass. I own one bass its an old Ibanez srx 400, I don't love it but i could not bear to part with it. It amazes me the lengths you guys have gone to continue playing when last year i stopped for a while because my bass had a bad setup and i didn't know what to do. got it fixed and got way back into. Bought my first amp, a 100 w ampeg and am gifting it to myself this hanukah.
Seeing you guys go to such great lengths though has really wanted to start playing more and more now. I realize that we have different playing style ( i play heavy metal, my parents say its a stage in life) but i still now sit down for about two hours a day learning new music and practicing the stuff i know. I now experiment with how i play and found that i can't play my bass up high like some jazz players do, i have to wear it lower because my wrist can't stand to be at a 90 degree angle over my bass to play it, so i practice standing up.
I'm sorry about the long post, but i've been reading all 10 pages and felt *inspired* to tell you how your guys' presistence has affected me.
I hope i don't run into this stuff later in life, and I truly wish you the best of luck, no joke, i hope you guys can return to playing normal and doing what you guys love to do.
Best of luck to everyone who posted

~craig

ps WOO 200th post~
 

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