Isn't it the same squeak that occurs when just moving your fingers over the strings, when yu don't lift them properly when changing chords? or playing glissando over one string? The squeky "breathing" that takes place? Because it sure does sound the same...and if we want to get rid of that, I'll understand where the sweet spot should be.
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Where exactly is the " sweet spot" pickup placement
- Thread starter Stephen
- Start date
I do think I've heard LESS clang tone on bass strings that are tapered or open core. There's more fundamental and less inharmonics in the upper register, but I don't know. It sure must have to do with ratio core/wire wrap and total length too.
But if a pickup is placed where it doesn't pick up any clang tone, or frequencies in the vincinity, there must be something to it in the end, however, a bit tiny nit picking.
But if a pickup is placed where it doesn't pick up any clang tone, or frequencies in the vincinity, there must be something to it in the end, however, a bit tiny nit picking.
To really open a pandoras box, it's best to remind us that all pickups has their own sweet spot. Since most pickups DO have a resonant frequency which can be seen in their specifications. That "resonance peak" is different for all pickups. If you remove the strings on any bass, connect the bass and TAP with a metallic screwdriver, the pickup has its own - sort of - clang tone too, so to speak. That you can't get rid of, or EQ out. When you tap it, you can hear among the noise, that resonant frequency.
If that resonant peak is the same, or about the strings clang tone, we are really opening up a can of worms, since they all WILL interact with each other. And plays role in placing them in that sweet spot. So if you've found a sweet spot for one of your pickups, make sure you stay with them, as fast as you change something out to another ENTIRELY different pickup, that sweet spot may be all gone.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/guitartech_0908.htm
It applies to bass pickups too. No need to worry that it is all about guitar pickups, that article. However, I do think that the sweet spot DISTANCE to the string above the pickup is of far more importance. I e the pickup height. I do think there's a sweet spot there too, and that is different from pickup to pickup.
If that resonant peak is the same, or about the strings clang tone, we are really opening up a can of worms, since they all WILL interact with each other. And plays role in placing them in that sweet spot. So if you've found a sweet spot for one of your pickups, make sure you stay with them, as fast as you change something out to another ENTIRELY different pickup, that sweet spot may be all gone.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/guitartech_0908.htm
It applies to bass pickups too. No need to worry that it is all about guitar pickups, that article. However, I do think that the sweet spot DISTANCE to the string above the pickup is of far more importance. I e the pickup height. I do think there's a sweet spot there too, and that is different from pickup to pickup.
nah, that's just the sound of your fingers or pick scratching against the string windings; it totally goes up or down in pitch depending on how fast you drag along the string.
the clang or wolf is a high-pitched whistle that even happens on unwound guitar strings when you pinch and drag along them (showing up on rusty strings more than fresh ones); i suspect that since it happens "transverse" that it's the same everywhere on the string and pickup placement is irrelevant.
(i would have argued that it happened longitudinal, moving down the length of the string, where regular vibration happened "transverse", side-to-side.)
All of the analysis of resonant peaks, inherent "clang", and vibration modes has been an interesting read. However, none of it provides a compelling reason for a luthier to attempt to predict desirable results based on these factors when determining pickup location.
When I was designing my current main bass, I decided to go with a one PU: a parallel-wired dual coil placed somewhere between where a P and MM would lie on a 35" string length. The results were great. It was part estimation, part experience with different PU's in various locations and part dumb luck.
When I was designing my current main bass, I decided to go with a one PU: a parallel-wired dual coil placed somewhere between where a P and MM would lie on a 35" string length. The results were great. It was part estimation, part experience with different PU's in various locations and part dumb luck.
I have to say that I cannot see any way for a longitudinal wave, which a magnetic pickup cannot pick up, to influence the location of the putative "sweet spot" location for said pickup. Furthermore even if there is some low level pick up of longitudinal waves by a magnetic pickup, as someone else said there is no sweet spot location for longitudinal waves, they travel along the length of the string. Other than attenuation they are the same everywhere. I can't see how these inaudible clang tones affect the tone of fanned fret basses either but then I am not trying to peddle fanned fret basses.
Ken
Ken
and that i think is the accepted idea of a "sweet spot" pickup, somewhere between a P and a stingray; especially with a bigger pickup, it seems kinda "neutral", tight without being twangy and really responsive to EQ.
As I said, it was a question I put out, not a definitive statement. I do think the sweet spot is different depending on if you have a dual coil, humbucker or single coil. And I think as well that HEIGHT between the strings and pickup has a sweet spot too. Different for each pickup. Novak of Novak guitars (with fan frets) actually claims magnetic pickups can pickup "clang tone", not as such, but when say a pickup or eq has the exact spot in frequency it can enhance or amplify the phenomenon. I do think that "sweet spot" should be only considered when using one pickup only. If you have two, there's very little reason to be THAT nitpicky about placement.
Of course, a sweet spot placement is done by trial and error, and eventually we find it, and of course HEARS when it is good, and better than anywhere else along the string.
But we can very much ask ourselves what it is that makes it that sweet spot can't we? Why just there? Remember that rail pickuped Westone. It had quite a few sweet spots that was detectible just by moving it a few notches back and forth. Although clang tone is a little far fetched, the resonant peak of the pickups can and will play a crucial part of the placement.
A string produces harmonic overtones at 2*f, 3*f, etc.
The individual vibration for a given harmonic has "nodes" where there is no movement (the points where you need to dampen the string to induce a harmonic). The N-th harmonic has N-1 such places along the string length (eg, 3rd has two nodes etc). String length changes on where we fret, too. So we have a huge amount of nodes in total.
If the pickup is placed under (or near) a node, there will be no (or little) output even if the string vibrates a lot at that harmonic. Hence placement matters in that it affects which overtones get sucked out in the mix, each pole piece location will have a different sort of filter pattern on top of the natural harmonic characteristics.
The closer the pup is to the neck and/or the higher you are on the fretboard the more irregular and "chaotic" the patterns will be (one part of the "magic" of a P or L1000 is the massive change in timbre depending on where you fret), also you'll have a lot of the fundamental.
The other extreme, pole piece closest to the bridge, basically reproduces all harmonics equally with little variation along the neck, including a lot of dissonant and "zingy" ones. Since "close to the bridge" is relative to wavelength, lower harmonics -- and the fundamental -- will have less output since they are closer to a node than higer ones (bridge and nut are nodes, too).
I personally find the Stingray/L1500 location a good compromise for single pup basses. It has some of that chaotic P character at higher fret positions but has more definition and many potentially annoying harmonics (like 7ths) nulled/dimmed when played at the lower end of the neck. The sound is quite pure harmonically, only little dissonance overall.
With two pickups installed, the effects overlay each other. Harmonics that get sucked out must either have their nodes on both pickup locations or they must have different polarity at each pup (polarity changes at each node). So two pickups will purge out way more harmonics that a single pup and this is the main reason for the scooped sound of two pickups like in a Jazz bass.
The individual vibration for a given harmonic has "nodes" where there is no movement (the points where you need to dampen the string to induce a harmonic). The N-th harmonic has N-1 such places along the string length (eg, 3rd has two nodes etc). String length changes on where we fret, too. So we have a huge amount of nodes in total.
If the pickup is placed under (or near) a node, there will be no (or little) output even if the string vibrates a lot at that harmonic. Hence placement matters in that it affects which overtones get sucked out in the mix, each pole piece location will have a different sort of filter pattern on top of the natural harmonic characteristics.
The closer the pup is to the neck and/or the higher you are on the fretboard the more irregular and "chaotic" the patterns will be (one part of the "magic" of a P or L1000 is the massive change in timbre depending on where you fret), also you'll have a lot of the fundamental.
The other extreme, pole piece closest to the bridge, basically reproduces all harmonics equally with little variation along the neck, including a lot of dissonant and "zingy" ones. Since "close to the bridge" is relative to wavelength, lower harmonics -- and the fundamental -- will have less output since they are closer to a node than higer ones (bridge and nut are nodes, too).
I personally find the Stingray/L1500 location a good compromise for single pup basses. It has some of that chaotic P character at higher fret positions but has more definition and many potentially annoying harmonics (like 7ths) nulled/dimmed when played at the lower end of the neck. The sound is quite pure harmonically, only little dissonance overall.
With two pickups installed, the effects overlay each other. Harmonics that get sucked out must either have their nodes on both pickup locations or they must have different polarity at each pup (polarity changes at each node). So two pickups will purge out way more harmonics that a single pup and this is the main reason for the scooped sound of two pickups like in a Jazz bass.
For one thing "sweet spot" refers to a location in physical space while "resonant frequency" refers to a location in frequency space. If a sweet spot exists in physical space along the length of your string somewhere then you can put your pickup there. If a resonant frequency exists in your pickups it is simply there. You cannot put your pickup there or avoid putting your pickup there. You've said something like this twice now and you seem to be confused about this. There is no putting a pickup in a "sweet spot" defined by its resonant frequency.
Furthermore the resonant frequency of a pickup is defined by its electrical parameters and its resonant frequency will be affected by the rest of the electrical components in your bass. Shown below is the frequency response of a bass pickup hooked into a typical bass guitar tone and volume circuit for various values of the tone capacitor with the tone control pot set to zero Ohms (full roll off).
There is a resonant frequency, it is the peak in the frequency plot for most values of the tone cap. If I had allowed the tone cap to go to zero the natural resonant frequency of the pickup would be seen. It is a very low peak at about 8kHz for this pickup, a typical jazz bass pickup as modeled by a professor at the University of Illinois. Change the value of the tone cap and the resonant frequency shifts.
Here is another plot showing the curves for two values of tone capacitors with various settings of the tone pot.
Note that for many settings of the tone pot value the resonant frequency has disappeared, the tone pot resistance has damped it out.
BTW, I cannot find any scientific papers related to clang tone on the web except for discussions of tuning forks. This makes me doubly suspicious of any appeals to "clang tones" in reference to bass guitars.
Ken
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The stingray pickup placement is close to where the Rickenbacker bridge pickup is placed.
Quite true IME.
A "far" pole piece will see mostly vertical components of the vibration and will be pretty linear while lateral string movement produces very little net change to the magnetic field.
A "near" pole piece will react a lot more, picking up strong vertical components (with a lot of even-order distortion) as well as most of the lateral movement (but only its distortion components with no fundamental!). When the strings get too close they will peak out, in the actual waveform. G&L MFD's are quite easy to overload this way on E and B strings, for example.
And that's probably only one of the most basic and simplified mechanisms, omitting a lot of other variables including unknowns... lot's of chances for different sweet-spots, I'd say
See there. Now we are getting somewhere. All my dabbling about clang tones, and resonant frequencies was questions I put out. I do think, while the clang were a bit far fetched, they still try to dodge it when stringing up and tuning acoustic pianos, because all strings are so taught that they are bordering on being just a STAVE instead of a strings, hence the tuning fork clang that is discussed all over internet. It still does exists on strings, especially thick bass ones, WHEN STRUCK, not plucked or bowed.
I do think EQ nodes and notches of a certain frequency that happens to be in the line of resonant frequencies of a pickup either enhances or scoops out that particular spot. Just as I think that the distance to the string is of equal, or even more importance. That's one reason why I don't like when manufacturers (such as EMG) makes their extended range pickups in a large housing with just two adjustable screws in the "middle" of the sides of the pickup. If they have double coil rails in them, you have to slant the pikcup along the strings length and the front of the pickup are closer to the strings than the back of the pickup. Which means you have to cut out foam to place under the pickup, making it spoingy. And do that by trial and error too. Much better to have screws in all four corners of a pickup so you can slant it accordingly (with silicone tubing of course, not springs). You get better results with that and can adjust the sweet spot in HEIGHT more precisely.
And no, I do not think the sweet spot for any humbucker or double coiled pickup would be the same as a single coil one. So there's no sweet spot that fits them all equally, you just have to do the trial en error bit. Otherwise there would be no use for a Westone Rail bass.
I do have heard on certain Music Mans that "the sweet spot" is capable of producing a very percussive drum like thump or thud, equivalent when hitting an acoustic guitar top with your fist and have it picked up by undersaddle piezo pickups. That's when you start to funk, pop, thumb and slap big time, with a smile on your face. This initial attacked thump is but a few millisecond and has no "tone" or measurable frequency content in it. Just as you hit a drum head, with a white noise. I've heard this on other instruments too and is more present if the pickup pole piece is directly under the spot of where you hit or thumb the string. In any way, there's always this question of the ever present weak g-string on any (or most) Music Mans so one can really start to wonder if that sweet spot is just for the rest of the strings?
I do think EQ nodes and notches of a certain frequency that happens to be in the line of resonant frequencies of a pickup either enhances or scoops out that particular spot. Just as I think that the distance to the string is of equal, or even more importance. That's one reason why I don't like when manufacturers (such as EMG) makes their extended range pickups in a large housing with just two adjustable screws in the "middle" of the sides of the pickup. If they have double coil rails in them, you have to slant the pikcup along the strings length and the front of the pickup are closer to the strings than the back of the pickup. Which means you have to cut out foam to place under the pickup, making it spoingy. And do that by trial and error too. Much better to have screws in all four corners of a pickup so you can slant it accordingly (with silicone tubing of course, not springs). You get better results with that and can adjust the sweet spot in HEIGHT more precisely.
And no, I do not think the sweet spot for any humbucker or double coiled pickup would be the same as a single coil one. So there's no sweet spot that fits them all equally, you just have to do the trial en error bit. Otherwise there would be no use for a Westone Rail bass.
I do have heard on certain Music Mans that "the sweet spot" is capable of producing a very percussive drum like thump or thud, equivalent when hitting an acoustic guitar top with your fist and have it picked up by undersaddle piezo pickups. That's when you start to funk, pop, thumb and slap big time, with a smile on your face. This initial attacked thump is but a few millisecond and has no "tone" or measurable frequency content in it. Just as you hit a drum head, with a white noise. I've heard this on other instruments too and is more present if the pickup pole piece is directly under the spot of where you hit or thumb the string. In any way, there's always this question of the ever present weak g-string on any (or most) Music Mans so one can really start to wonder if that sweet spot is just for the rest of the strings?
Hrmmm... no it doesn't. There's an ever present whistling tone going on, up high, no matter how fast you drag your fingers, or slow. I've tried this recently on an acoustic guitar, which pickups (K&K) tended to pickup up and amplify string scratch moreso than any other tone. This is for spun/wound strings only. It was almost the same across all four strings, G,D,A and E. Regardless how slack they were or even tuned higher than their normal pitch. Test this for yourself. The frequeny range was slighty above 7K at between 7.100 Herz and 7.400 Hz. When doing a narrow Q dip with a parametric EQ, all string squeal was gone.
On an electric bass, though, this is a no no, since no magnetic pickup will ever pickup these frequencies. Not because of the frequency range but it's longitudal oscillation. Pickups picks up transversal oscillations only. However, as fast as you include piezo pickups into the whole shebang, it starts to pickup those "EEEEK" and high whistling inharmonic tones.
When doing this dip on EQ, all frequencies above where left intact, but string squeal was gone. Maybe a tip for piezo users, and acoustic bass players? However, the CLANG frequency would be different there. But you can hear them acoustically just sound emitting from the strings.
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As with a lot of things with guitars/basses it always struck me that this is a personal preference of the person playing it.
I have modded quite a few basses myself and the only thing I have ever noticed is that for myself considering I slap a lot, I don't like pickups too close to the necks as on a Jazz Bass nor too far from the necks like a Thunderbird. So my "Sweet Spot" happens to be in between those two distances. [Personal preference]
As for the sound, you will get a different sound if you bridge pick versus neck picking anyway and I have never noticed a obvious difference in the sound versus the placements but that could just be me.
In short I guess my point being I would just place it where it convenient for you without a bunch of modifying.
I have modded quite a few basses myself and the only thing I have ever noticed is that for myself considering I slap a lot, I don't like pickups too close to the necks as on a Jazz Bass nor too far from the necks like a Thunderbird. So my "Sweet Spot" happens to be in between those two distances. [Personal preference]
As for the sound, you will get a different sound if you bridge pick versus neck picking anyway and I have never noticed a obvious difference in the sound versus the placements but that could just be me.
In short I guess my point being I would just place it where it convenient for you without a bunch of modifying.
the sweet spot is somewhere between the two jazz pups just an inch more near the bridge pup.
i have a custom bass with a mm picukup in the sweet spot.
It sound defined and tight like a bridge pup but rounder and darker. Its like a neutral, 'go anywhere' tone
i have a custom bass with a mm picukup in the sweet spot.
It sound defined and tight like a bridge pup but rounder and darker. Its like a neutral, 'go anywhere' tone
my impression too;
i was surprised to really find it when i put an EMG 35DC soapbar in the bridge position of a customer's ric! (heresy i know, but it fit without routing wood, so i felt OK about it.)
it was balanced yet beefy, and responded to amp EQ nicely.
I read up on all of that and it's cool to understand the physics. It seems like 9 times out 10 neck pickups are not placed close to the neck of a given bass except for the Gibson EBO and a small handful of other basses. People go on and on about "mudbucker" etc. I like a pickup up close to the neck in general. I don't like pickups placed less than or equal to ~1.5 inches from the bridge saddles because they don't have any balls. So I did it my way.
I like the stock position of the humbucker in G&L's L-1505 bass. So I modded 2 of those basses with added matching humbuckers closer to the neck than G&L specs. I've got these two humbuckers in the perfect positions for what I need: a deep, warm, round, punchy and clean tone. It's noticeably better than any stock 2 humbucker stock G&L bass.
I suppose the "sweet spot" is where you like it.
