Where to start with theory?

[251]

Here is a simple explanation of the basics. A copy of this will cost about as much as 1 lesson;
Amazon.com: edly's music theory for practical people - third edition: Books

 

[Allmanfan456]

Here is a simple explanation of the basics. A copy of this will cost about as much as 1 lesson;
Amazon.com: edly's music theory for practical people - third edition: Books

I'll look into it thanks man!

 

[DavC]

i see folks referring to the chord built on the 7th note of a major as diminished ...

if it's just a Triad ... a 3 note chord ... in the key of C ...

B would be the 7th note ... Triad as ... B D F ...

you could call that a dimished ...


but most folks are using major/minor 7ths chords in their examples ... which are 4 note chords .. !!!

so the 4 note chord built on the 7th note of the C scale is;

B D F A .... which i learned on piano as " half diminished "

whereas a full dimished 4 note chord has a double flat 7th .

at that point , then there are 2 scales for the 2 different diminished chords ... ! ( a guitar player might call the chord B D F A an Bm7 flat 5 , but there wouldn't be an F sharp in the key of C .. !! )

a lot depends on the theory you learn ... 3 note triads is a good place to start ... but 4 note chords and scales is probably best ...

 

[Allmanfan456]

i see folks referring to the chord built on the 7th note of a major as diminished ...

if it's just a Triad ... a 3 note chord ... in the key of C ...

B would be the 7th note ... Triad as ... B D F ...

you could call that a dimished ...


but most folks are using major/minor 7ths chords in their examples ... which are 4 note chords .. !!!

so the 4 note chord built on the 7th note of the C scale is;

B D F A .... which i learned on piano as " half diminished "

whereas a full dimished 4 note chord has a double flat 7th .

at that point , then there are 2 scales for the 2 different diminished chords ... ! ( a guitar player might call the chord B D F A an Bm7 flat 5 , but there wouldn't be an F sharp in the key of C .. !! )

a lot depends on the theory you learn ... 3 note triads is a good place to start ... but 4 note chords and scales is probably best ...

I'm confused on all that. I know the three note triads and I know there can be four note chords but I'm confused on what you mean.

 

[oniman7]

i see folks referring to the chord built on the 7th note of a major as diminished ...

if it's just a Triad ... a 3 note chord ... in the key of C ...

B would be the 7th note ... Triad as ... B D F ...

you could call that a dimished ...


but most folks are using major/minor 7ths chords in their examples ... which are 4 note chords .. !!!

so the 4 note chord built on the 7th note of the C scale is;

B D F A .... which i learned on piano as " half diminished "

whereas a full dimished 4 note chord has a double flat 7th .

at that point , then there are 2 scales for the 2 different diminished chords ... ! ( a guitar player might call the chord B D F A an Bm7 flat 5 , but there wouldn't be an F sharp in the key of C .. !! )

a lot depends on the theory you learn ... 3 note triads is a good place to start ... but 4 note chords and scales is probably best ...

Strictly Speaking, a diminished scale based on C Major is never actually diminished. It is Locrian, the half-diminished mode. It has a b6 and a b7 where as the diminished scale has a bb7 (enharmonic with a 6).

So, where as a B Locrian (C Major) triad, you would have B, D, F, A, this is not a diminished chord. It's a Bm7b5.

If you wanted a true diminished chord, the scale tones are 1, b3, b5, bb7. Or, in the case of B, we have B, D, F, Ab.


Learn your intervals and triads. You have 4 basic types of triad: Major, minor, diminished, augmented. Each of these consists of a root, a third, and a 5th. Which 3rd/5th depends on the type of triad.

A "full" 4 note chord adds a 7 to that. Either major, minor, or whatever the diminished/double flatted 7 is (a diminished 7)? That is a full chord. You also have various other tones that correspond to each scale. For every scale, you can use any combination of the scale tones and create a chord that relates to that. However, it does get more complicated, and chords will generally include a 3,5, and/or7.

 

[JTE]

The triad built on the 7th scale degree is indeed a diminished triad, both intervals are minor thirds. In the key of C, that triad is the notes B, D, and F. There's a minor third from B to D, and another from D to F. So, the vii chord (if you're only going to the triad) is a diminished triad.

However, if you go to the four-note chord, then the next note diatonically is A. That's a MAJOR third from the F (the five of the chord), so the seventh chord built on that scale degree is NOT a diminished chord. It's a minor 7 b5, or a half-diminished chord.

A full diminished 7th chord would be all minor thirds. Using B as our starting point, a Bdim is B, half-step to D, half-step to F, half-step to Ab. But Ab isn't in the key of C, so a full diminished chord is not diatonic to the key of C.

This is only one of the reasons I find it so very critical to understand stacking thirds and harmonizing the diatonic major scale. It really clarifies WHY things are the way they are. I find it silly to try to "teach" by having folks memorize stuff. It's MUCH better to help a student understand WHY the I and IV are major 7, the ii, iii, and vi are minor 7, the V is a dominant 7, and the vii is minor 7 b5 than it is to have them memorize those things. It's the difference between teaching a man to fish, and giving him a fish.

So, how do you harmonize the major scale? Do it on paper (it works GREAT on staff paper if you read standard notation). But just using the letters gets the point across. So, get a sheet of paper and a pencil, I'll wait....


Write out the scale once from root to root.
C D E F G A B C

Now, above that write it out again, only starting on the third...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then repeat it again, moving up another third...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those are the triad diatonic to the key of C. Analyze them. Figure out WHY the first stack of C, E, G is a major chord, just like the IV (F), and the V. Understand WHY the ii, iii, and vi are minors.

Then go one third higher to derive the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now you can determine clearly WHY the V chord is different from the I and IV, why the vii is different from the ii, iii, and vi.

Plus you start to see the connections between chords- why the Amin7 can substitute for the C chord, how Dmin7 and Fmaj relate, etc. And this is the start to the way great jazz soloists think. Miles, Bird, Dizzy, etc. weren't thinking modes at all. They were thinking intervals stacked on top of intervals. It's the way Larry Carlton approaches guitar too.

John

 

[Allmanfan456]

Strictly Speaking, a diminished scale based on C Major is never actually diminished. It is Locrian, the half-diminished mode. It has a b6 and a b7 where as the diminished scale has a bb7 (enharmonic with a 6).

So, where as a B Locrian (C Major) triad, you would have B, D, F, A, this is not a diminished chord. It's a Bm7b5.

If you wanted a true diminished chord, the scale tones are 1, b3, b5, bb7. Or, in the case of B, we have B, D, F, Ab.


Learn your intervals and triads. You have 4 basic types of triad: Major, minor, diminished, augmented. Each of these consists of a root, a third, and a 5th. Which 3rd/5th depends on the type of triad.

A "full" 4 note chord adds a 7 to that. Either major, minor, or whatever the diminished/double flatted 7 is (a diminished 7)? That is a full chord. You also have various other tones that correspond to each scale. For every scale, you can use any combination of the scale tones and create a chord that relates to that. However, it does get more complicated, and chords will generally include a 3,5, and/or7.

Okay I think I know what you mean. All these terms (Double flatted ect.) are a bit overwhelming at first. Hopefully I'll get it. I know the triad patterns for major, minor and diminished. Augmented always slips my mind. But for diminished how the third and fifth are flatted depends on the key the chord is being played in?

 

[oniman7]

No. You are getting the hang of it.

But a diminished third and fifth will always be a minor third and diminished 5th (tri tone).

The reason for this (as wonderfully explained above) is that a true diminished scale/chord is minor thirds on top of each other. One minor third on top of another equals a diminished fifth.

So if you're looking at thirds and fifths, you get this


Major: 4 notes plus 3 notes. In other words, Major third plus a minor third above that, which equals a third and a fifth.

Minor: 3 notes plus 4 notes. Minor third with a major third above that, which equals a minor third and a fifth.

Diminished: 3 notes plus 3 notes. Minor third plus a minor third, equalling a minor third and diminished fifth.

I am shaky on augmented (don't know what I've ever used one in context), but I believe it tob e 4 notes plus 4 notes, leaving you with a major 3rd and augmented 5. An augmented 5 should be a standard 5 plus a half step, enharmonic to a minor 6. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

I was trying to say what JTE said, but mucked it up a bit. Nice explanation!

 

[Allmanfan456]

No. You are getting the hang of it.

But a diminished third and fifth will always be a minor third and diminished 5th (tri tone).

The reason for this (as wonderfully explained above) is that a true diminished scale/chord is minor thirds on top of each other. One minor third on top of another equals a diminished fifth.

So if you're looking at thirds and fifths, you get this


Major: 4 notes plus 3 notes. In other words, Major third plus a minor third above that, which equals a third and a fifth.

Minor: 3 notes plus 4 notes. Minor third with a major third above that, which equals a minor third and a fifth.

Diminished: 3 notes plus 3 notes. Minor third plus a minor third, equalling a minor third and diminished fifth.

I am shaky on augmented (don't know what I've ever used one in context), but I believe it tob e 4 notes plus 4 notes, leaving you with a major 3rd and augmented 5. An augmented 5 should be a standard 5 plus a half step, enharmonic to a minor 6. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

I was trying to say what JTE said, but mucked it up a bit. Nice explanation!

Ohhh okay I think I get it. Okay so a diminished is always flatted at the 3rd and 5th. And the diminished 5th is a tri tone. And I think you're right on augmented. Just a major triad with a sharpened 5th.

 

[Allmanfan456]

The triad built on the 7th scale degree is indeed a diminished triad, both intervals are minor thirds. In the key of C, that triad is the notes B, D, and F. There's a minor third from B to D, and another from D to F. So, the vii chord (if you're only going to the triad) is a diminished triad.

However, if you go to the four-note chord, then the next note diatonically is A. That's a MAJOR third from the F (the five of the chord), so the seventh chord built on that scale degree is NOT a diminished chord. It's a minor 7 b5, or a half-diminished chord.

A full diminished 7th chord would be all minor thirds. Using B as our starting point, a Bdim is B, half-step to D, half-step to F, half-step to Ab. But Ab isn't in the key of C, so a full diminished chord is not diatonic to the key of C.

This is only one of the reasons I find it so very critical to understand stacking thirds and harmonizing the diatonic major scale. It really clarifies WHY things are the way they are. I find it silly to try to "teach" by having folks memorize stuff. It's MUCH better to help a student understand WHY the I and IV are major 7, the ii, iii, and vi are minor 7, the V is a dominant 7, and the vii is minor 7 b5 than it is to have them memorize those things. It's the difference between teaching a man to fish, and giving him a fish.

So, how do you harmonize the major scale? Do it on paper (it works GREAT on staff paper if you read standard notation). But just using the letters gets the point across. So, get a sheet of paper and a pencil, I'll wait....


Write out the scale once from root to root.
C D E F G A B C

Now, above that write it out again, only starting on the third...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then repeat it again, moving up another third...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those are the triad diatonic to the key of C. Analyze them. Figure out WHY the first stack of C, E, G is a major chord, just like the IV (F), and the V. Understand WHY the ii, iii, and vi are minors.

Then go one third higher to derive the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now you can determine clearly WHY the V chord is different from the I and IV, why the vii is different from the ii, iii, and vi.

Plus you start to see the connections between chords- why the Amin7 can substitute for the C chord, how Dmin7 and Fmaj relate, etc. And this is the start to the way great jazz soloists think. Miles, Bird, Dizzy, etc. weren't thinking modes at all. They were thinking intervals stacked on top of intervals. It's the way Larry Carlton approaches guitar too.

John

I think I get this chart. I'll study it more see if I can see what all that meant. But great post thanks!

 

[oniman7]

You "get" it now. The real magic is when you realize "Holy Expletive, I actually GET it!" and you start to look at things different. Lots of practice. You're on the right track. Keep learning and practicing.

 

[Allmanfan456]

You "get" it now. The real magic is when you realize "Holy Expletive, I actually GET it!" and you start to look at things different. Lots of practice. You're on the right track. Keep learning and practicing.

I don't fully get it but I have a rough idea. I should say I have a basic understanding instead of I get it. Thanks for your help I appreciate it greatly. And I definitely will thanks!

 

[Slaine01]

*subscribed - need a good kick in the &^%$ on my theory..

 

[Allmanfan456]

*subscribed - need a good kick in the &^%$ on my theory..

There's great posts in here. Has helped me greatly.

 

[brianrost]

i see folks referring to the chord built on the 7th note of a major as diminished

I've had arguments with folks about this for years. Every book I have ever read calls the triad built on the major 7th as diminished.

The argument insists you need four notes in a diminished chord, leaving out the 7th makes it ambiguous...is it half diminished or full diminished?

All I'll say is that triad is not major, it's not minor and it's not augmented. Gotta call the triad something...

 

[Russell L]

I've had arguments with folks about this for years. Every book I have ever read calls the triad built on the major 7th as diminished.

The argument insists you need four notes in a diminished chord, leaving out the 7th makes it ambiguous...is it half diminished or full diminished?

All I'll say is that triad is not major, it's not minor and it's not augmented. Gotta call the triad something...

The chord built on the major 7 is a diminished triad. Nothing vague about it. "Half" and "full" have no bearing until you add a fourth note (another 3rd up). That 3rd may be a major 3rd interval, or a minor 3rd. The former produces a half-diminished chord, the latter produces a full-diminished chord (both four-note chords).

In the key of C:

B D F = dimished triad
B D F A = half-diminished chord
B D F Ab = full-diminished chord

Notice that all the notes in a full-diminished chord are the same distance apart, that is, a minor 3rd interval. Even from the highest note to the octave again is a minor third. Therefore, we can name the chord by any one of it's notes. I usually just name it by whichever note is on the bottom.

 

[Allmanfan456]

The chord built on the major 7 is a diminished triad. Nothing vague about it. "Half" and "full" have no bearing until you add a fourth note (another 3rd up). That 3rd may be a major 3rd interval, or a minor 3rd. The former produces a half-diminished chord, the latter produces a full-diminished chord (both four-note chords).

In the key of C:

B D F = dimished triad
B D F A = half-diminished chord
B D F Ab = full-diminished chord

Notice that all the notes in a full-diminished chord are the same distance apart, that is, a minor 3rd interval. Even from the highest note to the octave again is a minor third. Therefore, we can name the chord by any one of it's notes. I usually just name it by whichever note is on the bottom.

That makes sense to me. That cleared up that confusion I had about that.

 

[Russell L]

That makes sense to me. That cleared up that confusion I had about that.

Glad to hear it, pal. And glad to help. Heh, I know this stuff is hard to grasp sometimes.

Let me add this, too. You may already know this, but for those who don't...

Within an octave, "Perfect" intervals are: P1 (unison), P4, P5, and P8 (octave). When lowered a half-step they are called "diminished." When raised a half-step they are called "augmented."

"Major" intervals are: M2, M3, M6, and M7. When raised a half-step, they, too, are called "augmented." When lowered a half-step they are called "minor." Now get this---when they are lowered two half-steps they are called "DIMINISHED!" I dunno what crackpot thought that up, but that's the way it is. That's what goes on with the full diminished chord. The major 7th has been lowered two half-steps (it's the same note an a major 6th, but you have to call it some kind of 7th, so there ya go).

 

[Allmanfan456]

Glad to hear it, pal. And glad to help. Heh, I know this stuff is hard to grasp sometimes.

Let me add this, too. You may already know this, but for those who don't...

Within an octave, "Perfect" intervals are: P1 (unison), P4, P5, and P8 (octave). When lowered a half-step they are called "diminished." When raised a half-step they are called "augmented."

"Major" intervals are: M2, M3, M6, and M7. When raised a half-step, they, too, are called "augmented." When lowered a half-step they are called "minor." Now get this---when they are lowered two half-steps they are called "DIMINISHED!" I dunno what crackpot thought that up, but that's the way it is. That's what goes on with the full diminished chord. The major 7th has been lowered two half-steps (it's the same note an a major 6th, but you have to call it some kind of 7th, so there ya go).

Thanks for your help i appreciate it. Yeah it's a tad overwhelming but I'm slowly getting there.

Hmmmm I may have to think about that a bit to fully understand. But thanks for the info man.

 

[DavC]

and who calls the chords what ... depends on the music college you where at ...

and if it's basic 3 note triads .... or 4

Allmanfan laid it out very well .. !


but i have a little different perspective being a pianist for a while before starting on bass ...

i've played/studied piano since 1963 , bass since 73 ...

there's always stuff to learn ... but at least it is Fun .. !