Where were you when Jaco died?

[Kwesi]

Is "greatness" in music or any art form purely subjective? Personally, I don't think so.

You may be on to something there. I'll think about it a bit more.

There is no doubt that the music Jaco played demonstrated all of these qualities and more. This is what I meant when I said his music transcends opinion. What he played was what he played. Whether you enjoy listening to all of it, some of it or none at all doesn't change the fact that those qualities are all there.

This is where we may have to just disagree. Was Jaco a great player? Yes! Was everything he played evidence of that greatness? That is a matter of opinion. There were two tracks that I listened to recently that clinched this for me. One I can't remember but the other was Crisis of of Word of Mouth. Personally, I thought it was awful. I know others that thought it was fantastic.

 

[BassyBill]

This is where we may have to just disagree. Was Jaco a great player? Yes! Was everything he played evidence of that greatness? That is a matter of opinion. There were two tracks that I listened to recently that clinched this for me. One I can't remember but the other was Crisis of of Word of Mouth. Personally, I thought it was awful. I know others that thought it was fantastic.

I didn't say that those qualities were present in everything he ever played. In fact, innovative musicians who take chances with new ideas often turn out some crud along the way, whereas players who don't take risks might be more consistent. 'Tis the nature of art.

 

[Infidelity]

So where were you guys when Jaco died?

Edit:I didn't even answered the question too!lol

I think I wasn't even planned yet at that time..

 

[Kwesi]

I didn't say that those qualities were present in everything he ever played. In fact, innovative musicians who take chances with new ideas often turn out some crud along the way, whereas players who don't take risks might be more consistent. 'Tis the nature of art.

You're right. I misread.

 

[BassyBill]

So where were you guys when Jaco died?

Good point actually - the original question was "Off Topic" material but perhaps inevitably this has turned into a discussion about music. No harm done, though, in my opinion. I'll ask for it to be moved to "Bassists" if you guys want.

 

[BassyBill]

And to those who don't dig Jaco at all - I would offer some friendly encouragement to have another listen at some point. There seems to be a misconception by a few people that Jaco was just about ripping up and down the neck at lightning speed (sure, he could do that alright) and nothing more. This really isn't the case.

Personally, I like a lot of the stuff Jaco did (Havona is one of my all time favourite tunes), but not all of it. For example, I never really liked his version of Donna Lee. Maybe this is because when I first heard it, I didn't know the changes for the tune, so I found it hard to "make sense" of Jaco's version; it was just a hell of a lot of notes. Now I know the tune, I get what he's doing, but these facts seem to make the piece something less than self-contained in my opinion. It's still a hell of an opener for a 1970s bass player's solo album.

But as I said, there's a lot more to Jaco than Donna Lee and millions of notes. Although Havona is such a great track (on "Heavy Weather"), my own favourite Weather Report album is probably Night Passage, because it shows so many different aspects of Jaco's playing. Listen to Port of Entry, Three Views of a Secret, Fast City (some great walking bass in that tune, btw) and Madagascar - my favourite cut on the record - and you'll hear Jaco playing a lot of notes, but also leaving a lot of beautiful spaces.

 

[bassrique]

Havona

For those not familiar:

YouTube - ‪WEATHER REPORT & PASTORIUS "Havona"‬‏

Perhaps Jaco's greatest work.

 

[Infidelity]

And to those who don't dig Jaco at all - I would offer some friendly encouragement to have another listen at some point. There seems to be a misconception by a few people that Jaco was just about ripping up and down the neck at lightning speed (sure, he could do that alright) and nothing more. This really isn't the case.

Personally, I like a lot of the stuff Jaco did (Havona is one of my all time favourite tunes), but not all of it. For example, I never really liked his version of Donna Lee. Maybe this is because when I first heard it, I didn't know the changes for the tune, so I found it hard to "make sense" of Jaco's version; it was just a hell of a lot of notes. Now I know the tune, I get what he's doing, but these facts still seem make the piece something less than self-contained in my opinion.

But as I said, there's a lot more to Jaco than Donna Lee and millions of notes. Although Havona is such a great track (on "Heavy Weather"), my own favoruite Weather Report album is probably Night Passage, because it shows so many different aspects of Jaco's playing. Listen to Port of Entry, Three Views of a Secret, Fast City (some great walking bass in that tune, btw) and Madagascar - my favourite cut on the record - and you'll hear Jaco playing a lot of notes, but also leaving a lot of beautiful spaces.

I agree.. I really enjoy listening to Continuum. It makes me feel like I woke up early in the morning and feeling like I'm carrying the whole word then suddenly something cheers me up.

Seriously, I have no explanation why I felt that way the first time I heard it. Came from Jaco's heart through music or I'm the one who manipulated that situation? It doesn't matter for me as long as I enjoy it.

If you don't like Jaco then don't but that won't stop me to push you on listening to him..

 

[Alex Xander]

That wasn't even close to what I was inferring. It doesn't take intellect to LIKE jazz. I never said that. It does require intellect to play it. Quite obviously more-so than rock 'n' roll etc, although I love that music too. Obviously I'm talking about musical intellect. Having knowledge of the ins and outs of the jazz language to communicate in it proficiently.

Notice you don't go to reggae school? Blues school? Folk school? But you do go to jazz school. This implies it takes... intellect! That doesn't mean the others don't. But it's a different league. It's not just dudes blowing noise over rhythms you know.

Notice the "like/play" in my post (particularly the PLAY bit). You're doing nothing for your cause here. You are stating it is the elite who play jazz. I don't care to start an IQ p*ssing contest, but I am no idiot .

We should have more schools that teach us stuff that the general population has no interest in... Really who cares if you have to go to school to learn something that nobody but your elite club wants to listen to?

The fact is that jazz is unlistenable to the bulk of the population (although so is Ke$ha to me, but she sells).

It really grinds my gears that jazz players will continually consider themselves superior to the rest. SRV, EC, Jimi and Dave Gilmour (among MANY others) play(ed) some very pleasing stuff to the ear of a lot of people, without being jazz oriented.

An analogy - making an F1 car that drives in reverse may be hard (and require high intellect to design) but is it a faster car? No

Please - enjoy playing jazz, but don't put yourself on a pedestal for doing so

 

[BassyBill]

I don't like "jazz snobbery" either, and I do encounter it from time to time. But it's a simple statement of fact that playing jazz can often require a much deeper understanding of some musical concepts than playing music in many other genres. That's just the way the music is and nothing to do with any half-assed ideas about "elitism".

I also think that jazz has a lot wider appeal than some folks give it credit for. It is, after all, a very diverse genre.

 

[Skitch it!]

YouTube - ‪Jazz club - desolate shore - fast show‬‏

 

[BassyBill]

YouTube - ‪Jazz club - desolate shore - fast show‬‏

You need to reflect on the fact that the Fast Show was the most unfunny thing to hit our TV screens since "On The Buses".

EDIT - Sorry, I realise on reflection that this comment is unfair and inaccurate. "On the Buses", horrifically bad as it was, was still, of course, much, much cleverer and funnier than "The Fast Show". No great achievement, obviously. "The Fast Show" was predictable and unimaginative fodder for people who were too young and lowest-common-denominator to understand the subtleties of Monty Python, or even Benny Hill, Ken Dodd and "Dad's Army".

 

[Skitch it!]

You need to reflect on the fact that the Fast Show was the most unfunny thing to hit our TV screens since "On The Buses".

EDIT - Sorry, I realise on reflection that this comment is unfair and inaccurate. "On the Buses", horrifically bad as it was, was still, of course, much, much cleverer and funnier than "The Fast Show". No great achievement, obviously. "The Fast Show" was predictable and unimaginative fodder for people who were too young and lowest-common-denominator to understand the subtleties of Monty Python, or even Benny Hill, Ken Dodd and "Dad's Army".

The Fast Show character is an old flashback to Uni day's while we completed the requisite Jazz Studies, nice! I haven't watched 'On the Buses' in years, it was very much the 70's type busmans's holiday as I remember though

I agree with your relation of the sub-categories of Jazz, there are a lot to chose from if your introduced to the particular angle you like, if your first outing is with something avante garde that's going to be a bit to digest. I appreciate all the landmarks, the standards and the players but I do tend to gravitate to the Jazz Fusion stuff a bit, that's a bit more my thing.

I also wondered what the thackery was going on when I heard Jaco's Donna Lee, I'd never heard the tune fully, without the changes going on it definitely sounds 'out-there' if your not familiar with them, it actually only made sense when I heard it in context to the changes.

I never felt Jaco was primarily a Jazz player as such, more from the fusion angle, Fast City is his best walking imo, but some of his other stuff has more skips than skippy the kangeroo with a new skipping rope. I don't think he was the kind of player you could tie down to straight 4's, on top of his lines it was his rhythmical subdivision that propelled things along for him and the band, lot's of ideas happening all the time.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

I never knew that King Diamond worked like six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

 

[bassrique]

You need to reflect on the fact that the Fast Show was the most unfunny thing to hit our TV screens since "On The Buses".

EDIT - Sorry, I realise on reflection that this comment is unfair and inaccurate. "On the Buses", horrifically bad as it was, was still, of course, much, much cleverer and funnier than "The Fast Show". No great achievement, obviously. "The Fast Show" was predictable and unimaginative fodder for people who were too young and lowest-common-denominator to understand the subtleties of Monty Python, or even Benny Hill, Ken Dodd and "Dad's Army".

In the "funny pics thread", I posted a bit on Mexican pointy boots. I linked to that wonderful newspaper you guys have, the Daily Mail

A link on the same page Invalid Link Removed. Is this the same guy?

If making bad comedy gains one such prizes, please sign me up for bad comedy.

-------------------------------------

Sorry for that detour.

When observing jazz or any other art, I ask the question if it's beautiful or not. While that right-brain question is first-and-foremost, my left-brain requires something too.

I'll stop before I delve further into incoherence.


--------------

I just found this Jaco and Jimmy Page vid:

YouTube - ‪Jimmy Page & Jaco Pastorius -[4.30.85] - Fannie Mae (Part 1)‬‏

 

[Shakin-Slim]

Notice the "like/play" in my post (particularly the PLAY bit). You're doing nothing for your cause here. You are stating it is the elite who play jazz. I don't care to start an IQ p*ssing contest, but I am no idiot .

We should have more schools that teach us stuff that the general population has no interest in... Really who cares if you have to go to school to learn something that nobody but your elite club wants to listen to?

The fact is that jazz is unlistenable to the bulk of the population (although so is Ke$ha to me, but she sells).

It really grinds my gears that jazz players will continually consider themselves superior to the rest. SRV, EC, Jimi and Dave Gilmour (among MANY others) play(ed) some very pleasing stuff to the ear of a lot of people, without being jazz oriented.

An analogy - making an F1 car that drives in reverse may be hard (and require high intellect to design) but is it a faster car? No

Please - enjoy playing jazz, but don't put yourself on a pedestal for doing so

There are no pedestals here, man. You seem to be getting confused with deep musical understanding and some idea of the elite and their snobbery. I don't IN THE LEAST believe that jazz is music of the elite. In fact, it's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Look at where and when the music was born. I don't know what it's like in your city, but here poor cats play jazz. Whether they're poor cause they play jazz or they play jazz cause they're poor is another question, but elite is the last word on my mind. Look at Monk, Bird or the free jazz musicians I listed earlier, or almost any person playing in that era. To say they, the ones who moulded jazz into it's modern form, are elitists probably shows you know nothing about the music and a decent chunk of American history.

If you go to a jazz gig, you'll also note that all kinds of people go there. Sure there are always the ones who like to discuss philosophical thought through the whole set and sip their red wine, they can get kicked out for all I care, but it is a cross-sectional music.

I never said to have greater musical intellect is to be elite. And those guitar greats who you listed, trust me they're some of my heroes, particularly Jimi, were incredible musicians, just as you stated and did play interesting music. If you read my first post I said that even though jazz is more complex, it is not better in any way. Obviously except for personal taste. You seem to be getting your personal taste, as you keep saying it's unlistenable, confused with the cold, hard facts. Put someone on the stand with a jazz group who doesn't have chops, the jazz kind, you'll watch him suffer. Jimi wouldn't get by in a jazz band without more learning. He's claimed himself and by others to have very limited musical knowledge, a aspect inherent to jazz. Once again, because it seems to be something that needs to be reiterated with you, I'm not saying this makes Jimi a worse musician, I don't believe that myself, it makes him a musician who can not fit into a band that plays jazz. On the flipside, Jimi was studying jazz on his own at the time of his death and there was an album plan for him and Miles. You can hear it in his latest music as well. Plus he had been jamming with John McLaughlin. Clearly he understood that the music was another tier of musical development. B.B. King said it himself, “Jazz is the big brother of the blues. If a guy's playing blues like we play, he's in high school. When he starts playing jazz it's like going on to college, to a school of higher learning.”

For the final time... please, that does not mean that Hendrix or B.B. King are any less valid than Mingus, Monk or Lee Morgan. They just understand that jazz is a more complex art form. Nothing to do with "eliteness" or "snobbery" although sometimes these things do show up, as they do in any circle.

I don't like "jazz snobbery" either, and I do encounter it from time to time. But it's a simple statement of fact that playing jazz can often require a much deeper understanding of some musical concepts than playing music in many other genres. That's just the way the music is and nothing to do with any half-assed ideas about "elitism".

I also think that jazz has a lot wider appeal than some folks give it credit for. It is, after all, a very diverse genre.

Basically everything I wanted to say only clearer and more succinct

 

[A-Step-Towards]

Yeah i dont dig his playing either.

Also I was in my dads junk , i guess?

 

[bassrique]

Yeah i dont dig his playing either.

Also I was in my dads junk , i guess?

Your Dad's junk?

 

[Kwesi]

Your Dad's junk?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[A-Step-Towards]

Your Dad's junk?

I was yet to be ejaculated into my mother , so yes my dads junk.

Sex ed 101