Which Circle Should I Practice?

[smeet]

If you just want to be told where to put your fingers, you don’t need to learn it (or much of anything else really).

But if you want to learn songs quickly by ear, predict what the next chord is likely to be when an unfamiliar tune is called, or figure out like chord substitutions to make a progression more interesting, it could come in handy. You may not need to study it, but any good player knows it by sound and uses the 5th-down root motion constantly.

The guy in the video is advocating ignorance based on talking to “professional, high-end” players. Maybe I have a different definition of those terms. if you aspire to be a good player (or even a “musician”), I would suggest aiming a little higher.

 

[InhumanResource]

I'm building out exercises for myself like this. I'm currently running Major and minor scales on every string individually, which forces me to find the note, and then figure out how to run it forward or backwards from that root. I've written down 3 variations on this exercise. I just got to wondering if 4th's was the best way to do it, or if it makes more sense to learn the 5th's cycle. When it comes to key and chord structure, I sometimes have to break out my chord wheel. It would be nice if it were just inside of my head.

If you are practicing scales in all keys, starting at C and progressing through each key by fifths is a fine idea. Bonus points if you are doing 2 octaves up and down.

Arpeggios are great as well. They will help you learn actual chords and are applicable in real life playing situations. Pick a few and do the same thing, up and down in all keys.

Are you studying any pieces of music too?

 

[vvvmmm]

I always say, when practicing a circle, don't be the jerk.

Well, I'm gonna say it from now on.

 

[bherman]

I do my scales and arpeggios in all keys, two octaves. I start with C, then go through flats to Cb (down in 4ths, to use your parlance), then back to C and through all of the sharps, to C#. My goal is to learn the fingerboard (I do most all of my practice on URB so its also to focus on intonation) and to learn the scale and chord tones in all keys. I use this as my warmup exercise, it maybe takes me 10 minutes or so. More important (to me) are learning intervals in all keys, 2 octaves when its possible. 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths. Octaves on the URB.

 

[FatStringer52]

but I don't feel like it's very useful when in a jam session

It's not. If this is the area in which you are trying to become more knowledgeable, then don't focus so much on scales and the circle. Instead, focus more on chord tones and chord progressions. Those are two areas that would be more beneficial in jam sessions. . .

 

[fdeck]

Circle of 8ths works for me.

 

[Groove Doctor]

This lessons explains it well and shows you how to apply it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

How to incorporate it into your practise.

 

[bherman]

It's not. If this is the area in which you are trying to become more knowledgeable, then don't focus so much on scales and the circle. Instead, focus more on chord tones and chord progressions. Those are two areas that would be more beneficial in jam sessions. . .

Depends on what you mean by "jam session". Blues or rock tunes, not so much. Jazz, yes if someone starts a song in a key that you haven't played it in before. If you really know your instrument and chords in all keys, all positions, you'll be fine (or at least be able to muddle through)

 

[Wasnex]

I'm building out exercises for myself like this. I'm currently running Major and minor scales on every string individually, which forces me to find the note, and then figure out how to run it forward or backwards from that root. I've written down 3 variations on this exercise. I just got to wondering if 4th's was the best way to do it, or if it makes more sense to learn the 5th's cycle. When it comes to key and chord structure, I sometimes have to break out my chord wheel. It would be nice if it were just inside of my head.

You need to study the concept until you understand the circle of 4ths and circle of 5ths is the same thing. The only difference is whether you are moving CW or CCW around the wheel.

This is a tool to help you figure out key signatures until you can commit them to memory. As I stated previously the sharp keys start at C and proceed CW along the circle of fifths. As you move to each succeeding key signature you add a sharp. You could also start at seven flats (Cb Major), move CW, and remove one flat with each succeeding key change. To summarize, if you are moving CW you are using the circle of fifths and either adding a sharp or removing a flat.

Likewise the flat keys start a C proceed CCW along the circle of fourths. As you move to each succeeding key signature you add a flat. You could also start at seven sharps (C# Major), move CCW, and remove one sharp, with each succeeding key change. To summarize, if you are moving CCW your using the circle of fourth and either adding a flat or removing a sharp.

Since you will need to know both flat and sharp key signatures you need to know it both ways.

However, ultimately a top musician should know their key signatures cold without relying on the circle of fifths.

 

[The Bass Clef]

If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a music student talk about “practicing the circle of 5ths”, and trying to make it into something more that it actually is. It’s not a practice tool, it’s simply a visual chart to figure out how many sharps or flats each key has (and to see what keys are closely related to each other). You memorize it so you know what key signature your sheet music is written in, and then you‘re done. That’s it.

As far as using it to practice chord progressions, it’s just not what it’s meant for. Yes, descending 4ths is one of many common chord progressions, so I suppose you can (sort of) practice that one type of chord progression with it. But all the other intervals in music are every bit as important as just 4ths and 5ths. And knowing what type of chord to make each of the chords in a progression (i.e. major, minor, diminished, etc...) is the 1st step in understanding and writing chord progressions. This requires learning the major scale and the 7 associated chords with it, then learning the natural minor scale and its 7 associated chords, then the other 5 modes, and then the harmonic minor and melodic minor scale variants. It doesn’t end there, but that’s where learning about chord progressions starts. If you’re playing a C major for instance, and want to move to an E chord and then a D chord in a progression, the circle isn’t going to teach you what the E and D chords are in the key of C (I mean if they are typically played as a major, or minor, or something else). I know this is not easy to understand if you don’t already have a good grasp on music theory, but what I’m getting at is, “practicing” the circle as a chord progression tool is extremely incomplete and misses the majority of what you need to know to build useful chord progressions.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm building out exercises for myself like this. I'm currently running Major and minor scales on every string individually, which forces me to find the note, and then figure out how to run it forward or backwards from that root. I've written down 3 variations on this exercise. I just got to wondering if 4th's was the best way to do it, or if it makes more sense to learn the 5th's cycle. When it comes to key and chord structure, I sometimes have to break out my chord wheel. It would be nice if it were just inside of my head.

I don't think it's necessary or advisable to run through all 15 key signatures every time you practice. Some people are fine with it, but I think most people will burn out and become demotivated if they spend this much time running scales.

Even alternating between running all of the flat keys in one practice session and running all of the sharp keys in the next is probably too much.

Plus I would suggest that instead of just running major scales that you also need to run the relative minor forms.

 

[dalahorse]

If you want to practice each scale, then do the following: Play a scale, move up one fret, play the next scale, etc. You've missed the point of the circle.

 

[StatesideRambler]

I currently practice running the Circle of 4th's along each string for the top 12 frets.

What do these phrases even mean?
“practice running the Circle of 4ths”
“the top 12 frets”

Unfortunately for me, I think the Circle of 5th's could be more important than the 4th's. The 5th's are the basis for chord structures. Throw in a 3, and you can place a triad chord anywhere on the neck that you want. This seems to me like it might be the foundation for becoming a musician versus someone who can bang out some tunes. It's important to note, that I am interested in understanding the music I love on a deeper level, and eventually be able to do composition, orchestration, and arrangement.

You need a teacher who understands this himself so he can convey its meaning, purpose and usage to you.

Why do you believe you need to work on the circle of 4ths/5ths now and why do you believe that 5ths are “more important” than 4ths?

 

[Cernnunos]

Arpeggios are great as well. They will help you learn actual chords and are applicable in real life playing situations. Pick a few and do the same thing, up and down in all keys.

Are you studying any pieces of music too?

Arpeggios, of course! I'll play around with that.

I'm not studying any pieces right now.

I do have a couple of songs that I'd really love to do variations on. One of which is All Things Must Pass by George Harrison. It's a super simple song in E. That song is the best requiem I can think of for George.

 

[mambo4]

I'm building out exercises for myself like this. I'm currently running Major and minor scales on every string individually, which forces me to find the note, and then figure out how to run it forward or backwards from that root

Still unclear exactly how your applying the cycle. It sounds like an exercise to learn the notes of the scales. As it is not a harmonic exercise or one related to navigating chord progressions, I see no useful role for the cycle of 5ths / 4ths in that case.

 

[Cernnunos]

It's not. If this is the area in which you are trying to become more knowledgeable, then don't focus so much on scales and the circle. Instead, focus more on chord tones and chord progressions. Those are two areas that would be more beneficial in jam sessions. . .

Suggestions on how to proceed?

 

[mambo4]

Suggestions on how to proceed

Learn how to harmonize the major scale. See the pdf linked in my signature.

 

[Ekulati]

IMO (decades playing, masters in music) you don't "practice the circles" of 5ths, or it's inverse, 4ths. At least not on a non-chordal instrument (and even then...). Sure, you play 5ths and 4ths, getting fingerings down and training your ear, but more important you learn the theory behind them and why they are those patterns, then you apply that to your playing.

 

[FatStringer52]

Suggestions on how to proceed?

There are a lot of very good videos on these subjects. My "go to" site for theory is Talkingbass. Sign up for a free membeship and log in. After logging in, select the "Free Lesson Map" and then select "Music Theory for Bass." Pertaining to the discussions we're having in this thread, watch the videos titled "Key Signatures and the Cycle of Fifths," "Minor Scales and Keys," "Chord Consruction: Triads," "Chord Construction: Seventh Chords," "Chords in a Major Key" and "Chords in a Minor Key." However, if you are not familiar with much theory, start from the beginng -- "Intervals." I am not affiliated with Talking Bass, but I find his method of teaching to be thorough and comprehensive. If you watch and practice the theory presented in these videos, you'll come out the other side a much better musician.

The video above from eBassGuitar on "How to Make the Circle of Fifths Useful" is also a very good video.