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Which Circle Should I Practice?

Which is more important to pratice?

  • Total voters
    87
Cernnunos

Cernnunos

Dec 28, 2019
101
89
#1
Circle of 4th's
CF-b(BEADG)-BEADG

Easy!

Circle of 5th's
F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-b(D-A-E-B)

What's my mnemonic here?


I currently practice running the Circle of 4th's along each string for the top 12 frets. I have more exercises that I've built on top of that. These exercises are teaching me where each note is on the entire fret board.

Unfortunately for me, I think the Circle of 5th's could be more important than the 4th's. The 5th's are the basis for chord structures. Throw in a 3, and you can place a triad chord anywhere on the neck that you want. This seems to me like it might be the foundation for becoming a musician versus someone who can bang out some tunes. It's important to note, that I am interested in understanding the music I love on a deeper level, and eventually be able to do composition, orchestration, and arrangement.

I await your instruction on the importance of practicing 4th's and 5th's. :bassist:
 
Last edited:
#3
FatStringer52 said:
Just playing Devil's Advocate with this . . .



Personally, I use both for some practice routines and consider them equally important. Can't help you with the mnemonic. I just found it easier to learn them as they are.

And, as a side note, a lot of chords on bass are built on the 1, 3 and 7, omitting the 5th.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I'm the last type of person he described, the person who is interested in understanding the music more deeply and is interested in composition. I'll add that to my original post.
 
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#6
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're asking. First when you say "practicing the circle", what are you actually practicing, what are you playing, what notes? Second, what are you trying to achieve by this practice?

Additionally, folks need to make the distinction between CIRCLE of fifths or fourths, which indicate (major) key signatures, and CYCLE of of fifths or fourths, which indicate a pattern of resolution of DOMINANT chords, not MAJOR SEVENTH chords.
 
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#8
Bassist4Eris said:
If you were going to practice only one, I'd say the circle of fourths. Why? Because a whole lot of jazz progressions move in fourths.
Click to expand...
Again, what do you mean by "practice" it? How does what you are "practicing" get you any closer to hearing harmonic progressions than ear training?
 
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#9
Ed Fuqua said:
Again, what do you mean by "practice" it? How does what you are "practicing" get you any closer to hearing harmonic progressions than ear training?
Click to expand...

I think OP's intent has more to do with fingerboard knowledge than ear training, but I get what you're saying.
 
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#10
Bassist4Eris said:
I think OP's intent has more to do with fingerboard knowledge than ear training, but I get what you're saying.
Click to expand...
That still doesn't answer the "what exactly are you practicing" part. Learning the geography of the fingerboard has any number of approaches, how they are being related to the circle of fifths is what I'm trying to understand. Because all the circle (either one) tells you is how key centers relate to each other. It's not vocabulary, it's not (really) functional harmony.
So if someone is trying to "learn the fingerboard", there are more direct and efficient ways to do so.
 
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#12
The way I think of it, Circle of Fifths is key signatures with sharps and Circle of Fourths is the key signatures with flats. It's basically just the order that accidentals are added as you move through the key signatures.

Tables below are organized as follows:
Relative Minor Key/Major Key, Number of Accidentals, Accidentals in Key

Circle of Fifths
A/C, 0
E/G, 1, F#
B/D, 2, F# C#
F#/A, 3, F# C# G#
C#/E, 4, F# C# G# D#
G#/B, 5, F# C# G# D# A#
D#/F#, 6, F# C# G# D# A# E#
A#/C#, 7, F# C# G# D# A# E# B#

Circle of Fourths
C
D/F, 1, Bb
G/Bb, 2, Bb Eb
C/Eb, 3, Bb Eb Ab
F/Ab, 4, Bb Eb Ab Db
Bb/Db, 5, Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
Eb/Gb, 6, Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb
Ab/Cb, 7, Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb

Basically if you are adding a sharp you move clockwise through the circle and if you are adding a flat you move countrclockwise.
Circle-of-Fifths-Simple-1024x1024.png

Here's one with bass clef
65fc10d073d8a6fd485a70f3c180a4a5.png
 
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#15
Ed Fuqua said:
That still doesn't answer the "what exactly are you practicing" part. Learning the geography of the fingerboard has any number of approaches, how they are being related to the circle of fifths is what I'm trying to understand. Because all the circle (either one) tells you is how key centers relate to each other. It's not vocabulary, it's not (really) functional harmony.
So if someone is trying to "learn the fingerboard", there are more direct and efficient ways to do so.
Click to expand...

That's in the OP.

I currently practice running the Circle of 4th's along each string for the top 12 frets. I have more exercises that I've built on top of that. These exercises are teaching me where each note is on the entire fret board.
Click to expand...

Then there's this part.

It's important to note, that I am interested in understanding the music I love on a deeper level, and eventually be able to do composition, orchestration, and arrangement.
Click to expand...

Hopefully this clarifies things.
 
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#16
As many implied, the cycle of 5ths / 4ths (its the same cycle no need to get pedantic) is not something we generally practice by itself. No single note runs of G C F Bb Eb Ab etc... In the wild it does not show up as single note patterns, it shows up in the root notes of chord progressions. A jazz ii V I progression is exactly that.

So, I use the cycle to organize the practicing of other patterns
I just played C scale riff, what next? F then Bb and so on
I just played an A arpeggio, what next? D then G and so on
Bonus points keeping things diatonic to a key. (Amin, D7, Gmaj, etc..)
 
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#17
JimmyM said:
Practicing them isn't nearly as important as understanding them, which you haven't quite got the hang of yet. And why on earth do you think you should only learn one or the other?
Click to expand...
I'm trying to maximize what I learn. I'm trying to find those things that have a lot of bang for the buck. Learning the 4th's was easy, so I did that. It's taught me the fretboard, but I don't feel like it's very useful when in a jam session. I want to start incorporating chord triads all over the fretboard, and I assume that if I have the 1 and 5 dialed in, I just have to plug in a 3 or 7 to get some nice sounds.
 
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#18
mambo4 said:
As many implied, the cycle of 5ths / 4ths (its the same cycle no need to get pedantic) is not something we generally practice by itself. No single note runs of G C F Bb Eb Ab etc... In the wild it does not show up as single note patterns, it shows up in the root notes of chord progressions. A jazz ii V I progression is exactly that.

So, I use the cycle to organize the practicing of other patterns
I just played C scale riff, what next? F then Bb and so on
I just played an A arpeggio, what next? D then G and so on
Bonus points keeping things diatonic to a key. (Amin, D7, Gmaj, etc..)
Click to expand...

I'm building out exercises for myself like this. I'm currently running Major and minor scales on every string individually, which forces me to find the note, and then figure out how to run it forward or backwards from that root. I've written down 3 variations on this exercise. I just got to wondering if 4th's was the best way to do it, or if it makes more sense to learn the 5th's cycle. When it comes to key and chord structure, I sometimes have to break out my chord wheel. It would be nice if it were just inside of my head.
 
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#19
Cernnunos said:
I'm trying to maximize what I learn. I'm trying to find those things that have a lot of bang for the buck. Learning the 4th's was easy, so I did that. It's taught me the fretboard, but I don't feel like it's very useful when in a jam session. I want to start incorporating chord triads all over the fretboard, and I assume that if I have the 1 and 5 dialed in, I just have to plug in a 3 or 7 to get some nice sounds.
Click to expand...
That's just simple math. Go two whole steps from the root to find the 3rd, or 3 half steps down from the 5th.
 
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#20
Ed Fuqua said:
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're asking. First when you say "practicing the circle", what are you actually practicing, what are you playing, what notes? Second, what are you trying to achieve by this practice?

Additionally, folks need to make the distinction between CIRCLE of fifths or fourths, which indicate (major) key signatures, and CYCLE of of fifths or fourths, which indicate a pattern of resolution of DOMINANT chords, not MAJOR SEVENTH chords.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. It is much more important to understand it than to “practice” it.
 
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