Which Circle Should I Practice?

[dbsfgyd1]

Circle of 4th's
CF-b(BEADG)-BEADG

Easy!

Circle of 5th's
F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-b(D-A-E-B)

What's my mnemonic here?


I currently practice running the Circle of 4th's along each string for the top 12 frets. I have more exercises that I've built on top of that. These exercises are teaching me where each note is on the entire fret board.

Unfortunately for me, I think the Circle of 5th's could be more important than the 4th's. The 5th's are the basis for chord structures. Throw in a 3, and you can place a triad chord anywhere on the neck that you want. This seems to me like it might be the foundation for becoming a musician versus someone who can bang out some tunes. It's important to note, that I am interested in understanding the music I love on a deeper level, and eventually be able to do composition, orchestration, and arrangement.

I await your instruction on the importance of practicing 4th's and 5th's.

IMO, to be truly fluid, you need to be on your modal scales more so than just 4ths and 5th.

 

[SteveCS]

If you play jazz stds, you know the cycles.

2 5 1
3 6 2 5 1
4 7 3 6 2 5 1.

But other than the root movement, a diatonic progression, say ii-V-I, is not the same as the cycle of 4ths, which is a modulation device, when I becomes V and IV becomes I.

 

[eddododo]

Just think about it enough for it to become second nature. Cycle your exercises or scales or whatever in both directions... it’s not exactly something to ‘practice’ as much as just something to know and to feel.

You want to know without thinking what note changes, ie where the half step moves for either direction, such that you have a second-nature grasp of your Tonic becoming the Lydian or mixolydian (plus a thousand examples)

So you MUST know both intuitively, I just don’t personally know that I’d call it something to practice as much as it’s something you can learn as you practice other things— this kind of thing is something I’d personally just work on while driving or walking or something, there are more essential things to spend valuable time on when you get to physically practice

 

[eddododo]

Just playing Devil's Advocate with this . . .



Personally, I use both for some practice routines and consider them equally important. Can't help you with the mnemonic. I just found it easier to learn them as they are.

And, as a side note, a lot of chords on bass are built on the 1, 3 and 7, omitting the 5th.

What a bizarre take.
It’s such an easy thing, and even if you don’t use the posterboard graphic of the circle, you should absolutely be able to grasp it effortlessly, and it’s a pretty low cost to do so. It’s the flip side of knowing the modes and keys, it’s not that hard and it’s not worth avoiding

 

[Mushroo]

I want to learn to drive. Should I practice left turns or right turns?

 

[IamGroot]

But other than the root movement, a diatonic progression, say ii-V-I, is not the same as the cycle of 4ths, which is a modulation device, when I becomes V and IV becomes I.

But other than the root movement, a diatonic progression, say ii-V-I, is not the same as the cycle of 4ths, which is a modulation device, when I becomes V and IV becomes I.

You are correct. But when someone says to me to run it in 4ths, guess what:

C-7, F7 Bbmaj7
Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7
Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj7..... etc

In salsa, a common modulation is ascending the ii V i in minor thirds.

Examples of my caveman music theory. Now I need to get back to my Joey666 videos and slapp those hard cycles. Approved!

 

[Nashrakh]

I want to learn to drive. Should I practice left turns or right turns?

Definitely the left turns. The right turns won't give you nearly as much trouble. ( )

 

[IamGroot]

Not trying to provoke anybody, but when you practice a cycle of 4ths or 5ths, what exactly are you doing?

 

[IamGroot]

Btw, you can leverage your knowledge of fourths via progressive flatting counterclockwise )
C lydian = G Major
C mixolydian = F Major
C Dorian = Bb Major
C aeolian = Eb major
C phrygian = Ab major
C Locrian = Db major

To go clockwise, do progressive sharping.

Melodic minor scales are messier.

You use this in jazz soloing.

 

[Groove Master]

Not trying to provoke anybody, but when you practice a cycle of 4ths or 5ths, what exactly are you doing?

I practice scales, arpeggios, motifs in the cycle of fifths because most chords progression move like that. This is actually how the ear hears

 

[IamGroot]

I practice scales, arpeggios, motifs in the cycle of fifths because most chords progression move like that. This is actually how the ear hears

Igor's chromatic exercises were in fourths.

Igor was James Jamerson.

 

[Groove Master]

Igor's chromatic exercises were in fourths.

Igor was James Jamerson.

Haha What fourths? Up or Down ?? I suspect it was going up ;-)

 

[IamGroot]

Haha What fourths? Up or Down ??

The key progression was C F Bb Eb...

 

[Groove Master]

The key progression was C F Bb Eb...

Perfect example of the cycle of fifths !!! Play C scale going down to F then the F scale going down to Bb and so on. You'll hear endless harmonic resolutions

 

[SteveCS]

Btw, you can leverage your knowledge of fourths via progressive flatting counterclockwise )
C lydian = G Major
C mixolydian = F Major
C Dorian = Bb Major
C aeolian = Eb major
C phrygian = Ab major
C Locrian = Db major

To go clockwise, do progressive sharping.

Melodic minor scales are messier.

You use this in jazz soloing.

Which begs the question what to flatten or sharpen?
It's a bit of a mind-bender, but the full picture is revealed if you consider the orchestral harp, with a default tuning of Cb Major, and start from there...

In the case of the cycle of 4ths, see how flattening the leading tone changes the tonic chord to a dominant (V7) chord in the new key. An alternative view might be making the iii chord diminished by flattening the 5th, then treating it as vii° in the new key.

In the case of the cycle of 5ths, the ii7 chord is changed minor to major which becomes the dominant (V7) chord in the new key. Another way of looking at it is the IV chord goes diminished by raising its root, then treating it as vii° in the new key, with root as the new leading tone...

 

[IamGroot]

Which begs the question what to flatten or sharpen?
It's a bit of a mind-bender, but the full picture is revealed if you consider the orchestral harp, with a default tuning of Cb Major, and start from there...

In the case of the cycle of 4ths, see how flattening the leading tone changes the tonic chord to a dominant (V7) chord in the new key. An alternative view might be making the iii chord diminished by flattening the 5th, then treating it as vii° in the new key.

In the case of the cycle of 5ths, the ii7 chord is changed minor to major which becomes the dominant (V7) chord in the new key. Another way of looking at it is the IV chord goes diminished by raising its root, then treating it as vii° in the new key, with root as the new leading tone...
View attachment 3657108

Interesting. Going to need to meditate on this when December OERs are done.

 

[Cernnunos]

IMO, to be truly fluid, you need to be on your modal scales more so than just 4ths and 5th.

I'd LOVE to work in modes more. That seems to be where the unexpected and emotionally evocative stuff is. I assume it's because everyone mostly plays in Ionic or Aeolian (happy and sad), especially pop music. I've only barely started coming to an understanding of how the Major and minor scales actually work. Not sure if I'm ready for the other 5 yet.

 

[Cernnunos]

Which begs the question what to flatten or sharpen?
It's a bit of a mind-bender, but the full picture is revealed if you consider the orchestral harp, with a default tuning of Cb Major, and start from there...

In the case of the cycle of 4ths, see how flattening the leading tone changes the tonic chord to a dominant (V7) chord in the new key. An alternative view might be making the iii chord diminished by flattening the 5th, then treating it as vii° in the new key.

In the case of the cycle of 5ths, the ii7 chord is changed minor to major which becomes the dominant (V7) chord in the new key. Another way of looking at it is the IV chord goes diminished by raising its root, then treating it as vii° in the new key, with root as the new leading tone...
View attachment 3657108

I almost understand this... almost. I've read it through a few times, and I think I have the gist of what you're saying.

Y'all are making me feel like the student that I am. You should see all of the flash cards I've been making.

 

[IamGroot]

I almost understand this... almost. I've read it through a few times, and I think I have the gist of what you're saying.

Y'all are making me feel like the student that I am. You should see all of the flash cards I've been making.

Congratulations!! and best of luck in your studies.
Please try to play with some jazz guys (if you arent doing so already) so you can put this stuff to work. Nothing will teach you music theory more than using it in real time playing with people. Serious.

I will repeat my "All Along the Watchtower" story again. Please refrain your disdain.
Dude calls that tune in the key of Bm instead of the C#minor (concert C minor) that Jimi did it in. I asked him to switch it back to C#minor. he asks why and I tell him "Because C#minor is the relative minor of E, so you can use the open bottom E string, and do a lot of nifty things like Jimi did." "No, C# is too high to sing."

 

[Cernnunos]

Congratulations!! and best of luck in your studies.
Please try to play with some jazz guys (if you arent doing so already) so you can put this stuff to work. Nothing will teach you music theory more than using it in real time playing with people. Serious.

I will repeat my "All Along the Watchtower" story again. Please refrain your disdain.
Dude calls that tune in the key of Bm instead of the C#minor (concert C minor) that Jimi did it in. I asked him to switch it back to C#minor. he asks why and I tell him "Because C#minor is the relative minor of E, so you can use the open bottom E string, and do a lot of nifty things like Jimi did." "No, C# is too high to sing."

I know some seasoned professionals, but I'm not even on the same planet as those guys. Maybe they'd play with me if I paid them. Otherwise, I'm sure I'd just be wasting their time.

I've been cruising the live jazz bands on Sunday at the local wine bar. Those folks are mostly small time pros and amateurs. I'm hoping to learn how to understand jazz, as the best musicians always seem to turn out to be jazz. I'm also hoping to maybe even find someone who can point me to the right teacher.