Who agrees?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

+1 All that is is a thinly veiled criticism.

Not true at all. Why would you assume to know what I'm talking about?

 

[JimmyM]

Perhaps comparing Fender and Wal-Mart might seem to cheapen Fender a little more than deserved, McDonald's and Bud Light are accurate comparisons since the general population thinks that Fender is the best (and McDonald's is a cheese burger) because that's what they've been told for years and have forgotten everything outside of modern media persuasions.

The old "people are sheep" argument again? Really, can't you come up with something less lame than that? I expected better out of you, Spade

Let's clear up a BIIIIIIIIIIIG misconception...Fender was the only electric bass you could get for a period of one year...1951. And electric basses didn't catch on with the public for a good 7 or 8 years after that. In that time, every major manufacturer had developed their own bass models by then. Some were excellent, some not so excellent. But all of them had a fair chance to compete in the marketplace, and you can find tons of examples of famous recordings where people did absolutely great sounding recordings with all of them.

So that brings the burning question, "Why did Fender become the top dog?" Because a majority of bassists, producers, bandleaders, and other creative decision makers in the music industry liked them better than any of the other ones you could get. There is no other reason.

You (and I mean the royal "you," not Spade or anyone in particular) don't have to like them, and you certainly don't have to play them, but Fender basses caught on because they were and are exceptionally good-sounding for all different types of music, and no other reason. You can try to blame it on the WalMart/McDonald's mentality all you want, and you would be dead wrong. So all of a sudden you're some kind of genius because you play something besides a Fender and everyone who plays Fenders are mindless sheep? Get the hell out of here.


Also, what's this nonsense about innovation? I don't want innovation. I want to know I'm getting a piece of gear that does what I need it to do. I don't care if it was designed yesterday or 100 years ago. The upright bass was designed centuries ago and has changed little over time. You don't see people complaining that their 200 year old upright basses aren't innovative enough.

And quit worrying about what everyone else plays. Sheesh! Never knew bassists were such a-holes about other people's gear till I got on here. You don't want to play a Fender? Don't. You don't like that I play a Fender? I would strongly advise you to keep that opinion to yourself if you ever meet me. Otherwise I won't introduce you to Bowzer

 

[spade2you]

The old "people are sheep" argument again? Really, can't you come up with something less lame than that? I expected better out of you, Spade

I wouldn't necessarily go for the "people are sheep" debate, but more along the lines of how powerful the media has become. Although I work at an instutition whose usual argument for everything is ".....because that's how we've always done it that way!"

My opinion pertains more to the McDonald's and Bud Light. I mean, if McDonald's were the answer, where would we find bread bland enough and meat thin enough? Bud Light started using their current recipe because grains were being rationed and the post prohibition drinkers forgot what real beer tasted like. Budweiser rejoiced because the product sold and contained minimal ingredients. ....all of which will be in a new movie Beer Wars.

 

[BEADGCF]

I'll be dead way before hundreds of years go by, so it won't matter to me what it fits then.

BTW, on the same token so many instruments have gone virtually unchanged....woodwinds, brass, violin family.

Actually, they've been changed quite a bit. The Boehm key system that revolutionized Flute/Sax/Clarinet fingerings was introduced in the 19th century, as were valves for brass instruments (previously one didn't have the range to play anything besides what existed in the harmonic overtone series of whatever key the instrument was in), and also the violin family had the fingerboard angles changed some along with different materials for the strings (metal rather than gut) and bows have gotten a little different as well.

As for the Fender stuff, as has been said, it's almost a chicken/egg problem. Not only that, but it sometimes is a case of functionality dictating sound too. For instance, it takes a really discerning set of ears to tell the difference between a Ric set a certain way and a Jazz set a certain way.

We have some instruments that can get a certain range of sounds, and people play what they like to hear. Fender doesn't have a monopoly on this or that sound, but they've had market dominance for so long that people know what to expect with one.

 

[Jared Lash]

The old "people are sheep" argument again? Really, can't you come up with something less lame than that?

But the flipside of this argument is just as lame IMO. It's the point of view that says "all you guys with custom, boutique basses are suckers because you overpaid for instruments that don't sound good in the mix. The only good basses are Fenders and Fender type basses"

I find that odd in several ways. One of which is that Precisions, Jazzes and Musicmans all sound very different to me. Not only that, even two Fender made Precisions can sound vastly different. And that's to say nothing of the vast difference between a Sadowsky Jazz and a 65 Precision. And yet the claim is that those two will sit perfectly in the mix and others won't. I find that as hard to believe as people saying that all Fender and Fender style basses are crap.

One last thing to keep in mind is that Leo Fender maintained that the best bass he built was the G&L. Just food for thought.

What's really funny to me is that I've played bass now for 19 years and electric bass for 17 years (I'm 31) and it wasn't until I joined TalkBass two and half years ago that I heard of such criticism of people's gear.

Bud Light started using their current recipe because grains were being rationed and the post prohibition drinkers forgot what real beer tasted like. Budweiser rejoiced because the product sold and contained minimal ingredients. ....all of which will be in a new movie Beer Wars.

Side note: I brewed up a "Pre-Prohibition style" ale from a recipe in John Palmer's book "How to Brew" (best homebrewing book on the market IMO) and it was fantastic. Hard to believe this country transitioned from such flavorful beers to the macrobrewed yellow fizzy water of today.

 

[king_biscuit]

Not true at all. Why would you assume to know what I'm talking about?

In as much as any of us can know anything, I considered what you said, referenced this with what I already know (or think I know), and filled the rest in with assumptions ans probability But to rethink what you said, I suppose I may have misspoken, as further research has shown me that people more often than not do associate McDonalds with high quality and good taste. Therefore, my sincerest apology to you...

 

[king_biscuit]

But the flipside of this argument is just as lame IMO. It's the point of view that says "all you guys with custom, boutique basses are suckers because you overpaid for instruments that don't sound good in the mix. The only good basses are Fenders and Fender type basses"

That's not what Jimmy said at all.

 

[JimmyM]

The one concession I will give you about the media's involvement is that endorsements sell instruments. I certainly wanted a Fender when I started because most of my favorite bassists used them.

BUT...if endorsements were the only reason, why didn't Hofner basses become top dog? They had the best-known bassist in history using them, and he still uses them, too. I'll tell you why...because at the time, most basses who played Hofners thought they were crap compared to a Fender. And up until about 1990, when Paul started using his again, you couldn't give them away. Even Paul talked about how crappy his was. Nowadays, people have had a change of heart about Hofners (coincidentally, this happened when Paul went back to them) and a handful of players use them now.

But that's beside the point...media can only take you so far. At some point, the product has to step up and present its own merits. Even with Bud and McDonald's...on the rare occasions I drink, I order a Bud because I like the way Bud tastes. I couldn't give a crap about ingredients and all that stuff. I just like the way it tastes. It's a good solid beer. And I like McDonald's hamburgers because I like the way they taste. I can drive down the road and stop at any number of fast food places that sell burgers, but I stop at McDonald's because I like the burgers. Sorry, but I do. My big round belly can attest to it

Same with Fender. I started on them because people I liked played them, plus -I- liked them. 30 years later, I still play them because I like them. No other reason. Media coverage only takes you so far, and then you actually have to like it. So when people say I drink Bud because of their advertising or I play Fenders because of their being the biggest and most well-known bass makers out there, I have to laugh, because nothing is farther from the truth.

 

[Jared Lash]

That's not what Jimmy said at all.

I didn't say it was. I've read enough posts from Jimmy to know he doesn't think that way. But that sentiment has been espoused in this thread.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

In as much as any of us can know anything, I considered what you said, referenced this with what I already know (or think I know), and filled the rest in with assumptions ans probability But to rethink what you said, I suppose I may have misspoken, as further research has shown me that people more often than not do associate McDonalds with high quality and good taste. Therefore, my sincerest apology to you...

Nice....

 

[SJLee]

If you had to sum up the sound of a Jazz, Precision or StingRay in one or two words, what would you say?

Lakland.

 

[JimmyM]

But the flipside of this argument is just as lame IMO. It's the point of view that says "all you guys with custom, boutique basses are suckers because you overpaid for instruments that don't sound good in the mix. The only good basses are Fenders and Fender type basses"

Where did I say that? Where did anyone say that? Let's look at my bass collection...I have a Jay Turser Beatle bass, a Dean Rhapsody 8-string, and two boutique basses with neck-thru and active electronics, one of which is a 5-string. I also have two SX Fender copies, and a pieces parts Fender copy. On the Fender side I have a heavily modified 76 Precision, and a slightly modded P-Lyte. So out of 9 basses I have, two are real Fenders, and one has been modded so much that it's just barely a Fender. So it's not like I have anything against other people's basses. But the bass I usually play is my P Lyte because I like it the best out of what I have. I will probably get a regular Precision later this year, though, because that's REALLY what I like the best.

And believe it or not, I really don't care what anyone's opinions are. I just happen to agree with what Paul Turner said, as well as the many other people who believe Fenders are the perfect bass. And to be honest, I do believe they sit in the mix better than anything else out there, and I fully understand why they're so popular. Sorry. That's my opinion and you can take it or leave it, I really don't care. Formulate your own opinions. I came to that conclusion on my own way before I saw what he said. I can't help how the rest of the world thinks, and neither can you. And to try and cheapen people's opinions by comparing them to the WalMart/McDonald's mentality is highly insulting and you know it.

I think most of you have way too much time on your hands to be so concerned about what everyone else plays. Don't want to play a Fender? Don't. Don't want to play a boutique bass? Don't. But don't try to put your own beliefs on the rest of us for not liking Fender. First, most of the reasons I've read in this thread are wrong. Second, I couldn't care less what you think. I play what -I- like, not what you like.

EDIT: Of course you know I still love you, bro

2nd EDIT: Never mind...I found where other people said that Anyway, it's all just opinion. Don't worry about it. Just keep doing what you do and as long as people keep asking you to jam with them, it's all good.

 

[spade2you]

Side note: I brewed up a "Pre-Prohibition style" ale from a recipe in John Palmer's book "How to Brew" (best homebrewing book on the market IMO) and it was fantastic. Hard to believe this country transitioned from such flavorful beers to the macrobrewed yellow fizzy water of today.

Definitely interesting the way that panned out. Still odd that comercials sold more beer than actual ingredients. Although, I'm rejoicing that true beer styles have been making a comeback despite such competition from the giants.

 

[Jared Lash]

EDIT: Of course you know I still love you, bro

2nd EDIT: Never mind...I found where other people said that Anyway, it's all just opinion. Don't worry about it. Just keep doing what you do and as long as people keep asking you to jam with them, it's all good.

And that's the bottom line. Really, I mean it when I say that I've never heard such criticism of gear until I joined this site. I love TB, but sometimes people get too wrapped up in what other people play.

In any event, I would never argue that Fenders don't sound great in the mix. Not to make it sound like I'm anything remotely like a session pro, but I recently recorded some tracks with a hip-hop collective that I play with. My first question was, "what do you want me to play?" It turned out I primarily used the studio's P with flats and occasionally an MTD 535. My job was to give them the sound they wanted, and I that's fine by me.

But I also remember when my college band got signed to a small label deal and we recorded our album. The recording engineer was pushing for me to record with a Jazz. I would have relented but my guitarist (who is now a session/touring pro) said, "we wrote and played all these songs with his basses (a Carvin LB76 and a Washburn fretless), and that's what we're recording with". Man am I glad he made a stand. I still love the sound of that album.

I also think of a guy like Justin Chancellor. Here's a guy playing with a Wal, and even then it isn't a "classic" Wal tone, not to mention playing through a bunch of effects. A VERY distinct sound. But it works for him.

Sometimes it's better to blend in and sometimes it's better to stand out. Sometimes that great familiar sound is exactly what is needed and sometimes you need to jolt people with something out of the ordinary.

But the bottom line is that it's all just metal strings vibrating in a magnetic field, converting them to electrical signals. Find the signals that work for you.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

. Sorry. That's my opinion and you can take it or leave it, I really don't care. Formulate your own opinions. I came to that conclusion on my own way before I saw what he said. I can't help how the rest of the world thinks, and neither can you. And to try and cheapen people's opinions by comparing them to the WalMart/McDonald's mentality is highly insulting and you know it.

You're contradicting yourself in several ways here, Jimmy. First, you're saying that you have your own opinions and don't care what others think, but you obviously do care if you think other people's opinions are insulting. Secondly, by comparing the Fender corporation with the McDonalds one, you say I've belittled their opinions. In doing so you're belittling the opinions of the people who think McDonalds is good stuff.

The only way you could be insulted from the comments I've made is if you think your beliefs hold a higher value than others, including those who think McD's is good, apparently Think about it- I compared Fender to Bud and McD's because their function and station in their respective fields in our culture is nearly identical. I've yet to hear anyone disprove that. But where did I ever say that McDonalds or Bud was bad? I didn't. Where did I say the opinions of people who like Bud or Fender or McDonalds was bad? I didn't. Where did I say that people who like these products only like them because they were indoctrinated to like them or because they haven't given other similar products a fair shot? I didn't, although the opposite has been stated many times towards me. I simply stated that a majority preference does not equate being better. Opinions are just that, and one person's opinion of what sounds good or sits well in a mix may not be the opinion of someone else. That's perfectly fine by me. Some have had issue with that in this thread though. You can have a great amount of experience and a perfectly open mind and still disagree on what you think sounds and plays well. I'm not sure why that's frustrating some folks.

 

[JimmyM]

Well after thinking about what you said, Brian, I guess you're right about taking the McDonald's thing too seriously. After all, you can look up old quotes from me on here where I called boutique basses "driftwood" and "furniture" so I guess it's all the same thing.

 

[Pilgrim]

This is a quote from Paul Turner from an interview with Bass Guitar Magazine.
This is a quote from Paul Turner from an interview with Bass Guitar Magazine.

Quote:
Leo designed a number of basses and, let’s not forget, guitars. In the Precision, Jazz and StingRay there are tones that just seem to work in almost all contemporary music. They sound right when supporting the track in the mix or even being featured. Some of the comfort from hearing their sound is that it’s what we’ve been listening to most of our lives, but that’s not coincidental. As it’s subjective I’ll keep saying in my opinion; but for me Fender’s have that beautiful depth. Nothing beds a track like a Precision and yet the note always shines through. A Jazz is so beautifully pure, perfect and versatile and probably my favourite. The StingRay is punchy with attitude... I love them.

My question is who agrees with Paul? I know I do...

I can't disagree with the original post. Leo's instruments are as much a standard as any ever made. There are many, many other instruments that also sound great, but the brainchildren of Leo Fender have stood the test of time...at least as much time as solid-body gitars and basses have been around.

 

[fretlessrock]

who woulda thought that a thread about Fender basses could get so contentious?



I haven't owned a Fender(tm) proper in a few years, but I do own a Jazz style bass that is everything I wanted in a Fender J, or a P for that matter. As much as I love my Sonus 5, it isn't the right bass for a lot of things. As someone who works on my own material, plays on others material, and does a fair amount of mixing and fixing, there is a reason why some basses work. Most of the time you want the bass to occupy a certain piece of the sonic spectrum, and present the fundamental without distracting from other areas of the mix, and some basses are right and some aren't. That changes depending on the style, the instrumentation, the player... If I had to pick up one bass with the best chance of being "right", it would be the J (a Jack Read custom with Bart CS stacks, VVT, passive). It can cover a lot of ground, and still be plenty bright even with the old TIJF strings that I have no interest in swapping out.

If it had to be more upright-like, I have a Tacoma ABG. If it had to sound super detailed with more high end or something that I would rather do with an active bass, the Zon. But still, The J just kills on most things where you want a bass to sound like a bass. The track needs little or no post processing.

related info-rant:

I feel like a broken record on this, but here goes: Most bass players think "their tone" is the axis on which the music revolves. 99/100, it isn't. Spend some time behind the desk on a variety of projects with a pro and you can find out what makes or breaks a bass sound. Most bare bass tracks sound (to the player) horrible, but sound great in the mix. It has a lot to do with psychoacoustics and human hearing, IMO. Most "idealized" bass sounds are pleasing in the bedroom, but are awful in the mix. Likewise, many (maybe most?) of the bass sounds that you like don't sound the way you think they do if you hear them on their own. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a sound that you like, but I am saying that it is far less important than you think it is unless you are recording solo bass, or lead/feature bass... and even then, the player is often the last person you would want behind the board. I've had a chance to work with a few good engineers and they have been consistent: if the player insists on using some bass with a bad/wrong tone, they are thinking ahead to how to fix it. I guess it comes down to the things that happen when players who play for a living work with engineers who engineer for a living (and I am neither). i.e it is very common for good engineers to go out into the live room and show experienced drummers how to tune their drums and they don't expect any prima donna act, and the same goes for everyone else.

And remember... this is one opinion based on one set of experiences. If you don't agree then you are certainly not alone and I don't take it personally.

 

[JimmyM]

F-rock, it's hard to argue with a guy who uses such a legendary icon as Zippy the Pinhead for an avatar, but the part you said about bassists thinking they're the axis the music revolves around...I don't think that. I know it The bassist can make a good band great, or he/she can ruin it. I wield that power knowingly and proudly, and I will use it against people who get in my way

 

[fretlessrock]

Right on! I'm talking about a specific area of "behind the desk" issues... Musically, of course the bass is the axis... bold as love, baby!