• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Who's Overrated? Who's Underrated?

#282
plangentmusic said:
I'll put a few rebuttals in.

Leo Lyons. Yes! Great player -- and considered so at the time but his legacy hasn't carried into the modern age.

Ron Wood was very unique because he played like a frustrated guitarist on the bass. Then he switched to guitar and sounds like a frustrated guitarist on the guitar.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I can never understand why people seem to have forgotten Ten Years After. I'll talk about them, and a lot of times people will just stare blankly. That band was great! And I love watching video of Leo because it doesn't look like he should be able to be playing at all. He's always flailing about and thrashing like he's having a seizure, but somehow maintains time.

Oh, also underrated (though not in rockabilly): Bill Black.
 
#285
Azzi said:
Entwistle doesn't interest me in the slightest, I tried to listen to him but I can't enjoy. I'll take Jaco over him anyday, not only was Jaco an amazing bassist but a amazing composer as well.
Click to expand...

I never said Jaco was neither a good composer or bassist. Whether you prefer his tone or not, that's subjective, but facts are facts, and Entwistle has much more accomplishments under his belt than any other bassist. Jaco is an amazing bassist, but gets treated as the bass god all the time, which irritates me to no end because I know that, at the most, while he sounded great, he was a virtuoso, he really accomplished as much as ,say, Victor Wooten. Which I don't necessarily think he's overrated, I think he's been subject to a vast amount blind praise, and blind praise is also one of those things that just irritates me to no end.
 
#286
Florox said:
I never said Jaco was neither a good composer or bassist. Whether you prefer his tone or not, that's subjective, but facts are facts, and Entwistle has much more accomplishments under his belt than any other bassist.
Click to expand...
What accomplishments exactly?

Sure he was a part of a band that sold lot's of records and is very influential.

But can you really say that there was bass before Entwistle and then bass after Entwistle?

Jack Bruce is more of a pioneer than Entwistle: he's the one that really put bass in your face and made it a lead instrument.

Florox said:
Jaco is an amazing bassist, but gets treated as the bass god all the time, which irritates me to no end because ...
Click to expand...
Because you weren't around at the time to see and hear the impact that the man had on pretty much all bass players.

It's been said that there is bass before Jaco, and there is bass after jaco. Go back and listen to music before and after Jaco and tell me you can't hear his influence.
 
#287
wade_b said:
What accomplishments exactly?

Sure he was a part of a band that sold lot's of records and is very influential.

But can you really say that there was bass before Entwistle and then bass after Entwistle?

Jack Bruce is more of a pioneer than Entwistle: he's the one that really put bass in your face and made it a lead instrument.


Because you weren't around at the time to see and hear the impact that the man had on pretty much all bass players.

It's been said that there is bass before Jaco, and there is bass after jaco. Go back and listen to music before and after Jaco and tell me you can't hear his influence.
Click to expand...

Bud, I've listened to Jaco quite a lot. Apparently it is you who doesn't know who Entwsitle is and what he did. Taking into account he came before all the bassist you mentioned. And no, there wasn't bass before Entwistle, because it was in it's baby steps and he took it into the forefront before anyone did. Yes, James Jamerson did innotive on it widely, pretty much the only other person apart from Entwistle, but he was far from taking into the forefront. I wonder who had the first bass solo in a rock record.... hmm sure wasn't Jack Bruce. Do your homework, read my posts a couple of pages ago, then come back.
 
#289
notverygood said:
+1 to Jack Bruce. Ginger Baker also underrated. I guess it's hard to shine with Clapton around. Clapton OVERRATED.
Click to expand...


Spot on observation!

I notice how the crowd on the front rows of Cream live at the Royal Albert Hall 2005 are all fixated on Clapton while Jack Bruce and Ginger are almost totally ignored. Such a shame because I was totally fixed on Jack(the voice and the bass) the whole time. And Ginger's drumming was out of this world for a 65 year old.
 
#290
Florox said:
Bud, I've listened to Jaco quite a lot. Apparently it is you who doesn't know who Entwsitle is and what he did.
Click to expand...
He cranked up the volume to insane levels and played big dumb pentatonics.

Big deal.

Everybody caught on pretty quick to most of what he was doing - he didn't drop jaws like Jaco and Jack Bruce did.

A lot of Entwistle's stuff is pretty pedestrian, pretty stock pentatonic box licks. His tone was a little different, and he was a loud as hell bassist in a loud as hell rock band.
 
#291
wade_b said:
Because you weren't around at the time to see and hear the impact that the man had on pretty much all bass players.

It's been said that there is bass before Jaco, and there is bass after jaco. Go back and listen to music before and after Jaco and tell me you can't hear his influence.
Click to expand...

If that's true (and I don't think it is), then I prefer "bass before Jaco". I guess it depends on what kind of music you listen to. You certainly aren't going to hear Jaco's influence in a ZZ Top song, for example. I have tried, countless times, to listen to Jaco, and I always come to the same conclusion: self indulgent noodling. Certainly not exclusive to Jaco, but there it is.
With regard to the Entwistle comparison, there is none. Entwistle's accomplishments included the development of roundwound strings and multiple amp stage rigs. He changed the face of bass guitar in popular music by bringing it to the fore, sonically. Jaco changed the face of bass in a very narrow segment of music - one which most listeners (the ones who spend all the money) would hardly consider "popular". If someone asked me who the four biggest bass "game changers" were in the realm of popular music, they would be (in no particular order): Jamerson, Entwistle, McCartney and Larry Graham. In that capacity, Jaco isn't even on the radar.
 
#293
wade_b said:
He cranked up the volume to insane levels and played big dumb pentatonics.

Big deal.

Everybody caught on pretty quick to most of what he was doing - he didn't drop jaws like Jaco and Jack Bruce did.

A lot of Entwistle's stuff is pretty pedestrian, pretty stock pentatonic box licks. His tone was a little different, and he was a loud as hell bassist in a loud as hell rock band.
Click to expand...

the reason why everybody caught on pretty quick is because his bass line were simple and just sorta flow along your fingers and every bass player wanted to be John Entwistle because he was the first rock bass idol. Now i not denying that Jaco and Jack aren't influental bassist, its just that john created a whole new way of playing because he had no bassist's to look up to for insperation.
 
#294
lowend1 said:
If that's true (and I don't think it is), then I prefer "bass before Jaco". I guess it depends on what kind of music you listen to. You certainly aren't going to hear Jaco's influence in a ZZ Top song, for example. I have tried, countless times, to listen to Jaco, and I always come to the same conclusion: self indulgent noodling. Certainly not exclusive to Jaco, but there it is.
With regard to the Entwistle comparison, there is none. Entwistle's accomplishments included the development of roundwound strings and multiple amp stage rigs. He changed the face of bass guitar in popular music by bringing it to the fore, sonically. Jaco changed the face of bass in a very narrow segment of music - one which most listeners (the ones who spend all the money) would hardly consider "popular". If someone asked me who the four biggest bass "game changers" were in the realm of popular music, they would be (in no particular order): Jamerson, Entwistle, McCartney and Larry Graham. In that capacity, Jaco isn't even on the radar.
Click to expand...

+100, better than I could put it.


I think the reason why many people get so defensive is because they're taught from the beginning that Jaco is god, and there's no way of refuting that. Also, they might get the impression that I'm against Jaco, or that someone is saying that he wasn't a virtuoso. He was a virtuoso with all the right, but he's the EVH of the bass world, did the exact same thing. I mean, except survive, I suppose :ninja:.


Also, someone said that Entwistle's lines were simple and basic and that his sound was slightly different. I digress deeply. Go listen to him again, I don't think anyone had a trebly tone by the time he was playing nor his chops. It was pretty cutting edge stuff that bassists just didn't do. Matter o fact, go listen to his solo records, or listen to Won't Get Fooled Again live with the bass volume increased. Oh and, more does not equal better. That's the type of comment that people who sacrifice quality for quantity say.
 
#295
Underrated -

Simon Gallup - The Cure
Although not hard to play at all, the line in Fascination Street puts a smile on me everytime I hear it.
Clifton Mayhugh - Adrian Belew's first two solo records. My favorite fretless playing ever. Does not sound like Jaco.

Overrated -

The dude that replaced Andy West in the Dregs. (Not Jerry Peek)
The guy in the David Mathews Band.
 
#296
lowend1 said:
If that's true (and I don't think it is), then I prefer "bass before Jaco". I guess it depends on what kind of music you listen to. You certainly aren't going to hear Jaco's influence in a ZZ Top song, for example. I have tried, countless times, to listen to Jaco, and I always come to the same conclusion: self indulgent noodling. Certainly not exclusive to Jaco, but there it is.
With regard to the Entwistle comparison, there is none. Entwistle's accomplishments included the development of roundwound strings and multiple amp stage rigs. He changed the face of bass guitar in popular music by bringing it to the fore, sonically. Jaco changed the face of bass in a very narrow segment of music - one which most listeners (the ones who spend all the money) would hardly consider "popular". If someone asked me who the four biggest bass "game changers" were in the realm of popular music, they would be (in no particular order): Jamerson, Entwistle, McCartney and Larry Graham. In that capacity, Jaco isn't even on the radar.
Click to expand...
The fact is more pro bassists cite Jaco Pastorius as an influence than any other bassist.

Even Michael Anthony of Van Halen cites him as an influence.

This discussion isn't about what you or I prefer.

Maybe you should educate YOURSELF a little more about what exactly Jaco did to influence people. 1 finger per fret technique for one: how many millions of bassists since use that technique now as a matter of course?

How many used that technique before Jaco?

"The burpy J". The tone found throughout 70's fusion, and exploded outward after Jaco. You know the tone: J bass, solo'ed bridge pup. Everybody and their brother was copping a variation on that tone after Jaco. Pino Palladino's fretless work: Jaco. Michael Manring: Jaco. Victor Bailey: Jaco. R&B bassists in general: Jaco. Gospel chops bassists: Jaco.

In every genre you'll find Jaco's influence.

Mr. Entwistle was awesome but his chops and appeal are limited to fans of rock. Jaco taught people how to play BASS. Like the young Bakithi Kumalo, who taught himself fretless by ear by listening to .....JACO.

You lose bro, sorry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcdeepend
#298
wade_b said:
The fact is more pro bassists cite Jaco Pastorius as an influence than any other bassist.

Even Michael Anthony of Van Halen cites him as an influence.

This discussion isn't about what you or I prefer.

Maybe you should educate YOURSELF a little more about what exactly Jaco did to influence people. 1 finger per fret technique for one: how many millions of bassists since use that technique now as a matter of course?

How many used that technique before Jaco?

"The burpy J". The tone found throughout 70's fusion, and exploded outward after Jaco. You know the tone: J bass, solo'ed bridge pup. Everybody and their brother was copping a variation on that tone after Jaco. Pino Palladino's fretless work: Jaco. Michael Manring: Jaco. Victor Bailey: Jaco. R&B bassists in general: Jaco. Gospel chops bassists: Jaco.

In every genre you'll find Jaco's influence.

Mr. Entwistle was awesome but his chops and appeal are limited to fans of rock. Jaco taught people how to play BASS. Like the young Bakithi Kumalo, who taught himself fretless by ear by listening to .....JACO.

You lose bro, sorry.
Click to expand...

Just like Jaco is just limited to fans of fusion/jazz? Pardon me, but everyone in the R&B world copies James Jamerson, not Jaco. And rock is the widest genre of music in existence, you can't influence more musicians than that. Again, whoever told you this information is dead wrong. Just because some bassist in the genres you mentioned might be influenced by Jaco, it's not even close to being most of them. You really are not getting Mr. Entwistle's magnitude. The man you quoted spoke facts. Yes, alot of people might play with a burpy tone, but how much of them play roundwounds, or basses with active electronics? Just so you know, Jaco used the strings that Entwistle designed, and I think that says a lot.


Jaco is an excellent virtuoso player, just not close to the four the man you quoted mentioned. They're really the people that changed the game, and it isn't about opinions, it's facts. Jaco did influence a bunch of people, just not even close to the people these guys influenced. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, why does Jaco has to be so damn important? Please, write me a list with his accomplishments. Matter of fact, forget it as you didn't even read what the former guy wrote, which was supposed to end it all.

wes stephenson said:
i agree with wade b. it doesnt mean entwistle wasnt good or deserved respect he just wasnt in the same league as a jaco, jamerson, marcus miller, or pino palladino for that matter. shoot he wasnt even as deep or well rounded as john paul jones...
Click to expand...

You really have no idea what you're talking about. By the way, there's nothing special about John Paul Jones, nor Pino Palladino who tried to replace him and can't even approximate the Ox's sound nor technique. Marcus Miller is a copycat period, he doesn't deserve any place, anywhere. Jamerson sharers the spot with Entwistle. Wouldn't it hurt to check some history before you make such an inane comment? I'm defending Entwistle, and he's not even my favorite bassist, not even close in the list. I just have a lot of respect for a man that revolutionized the bass world like he did. Jaco? Pfft. He didn't do anything new, just developed very well something old. Entwistle, like Jamerson and Graham are people who rbought something completely new to the table.


I won't continue as I am really getting impatient with the incompetence of some. This is not a matter of taste, it's a matter of facts. Get your facts straight, then you can join the conversation.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back