Wow, IMHO Jaco will be remembered as a composer as much as a bassist when all is said and done.
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Who's Overrated? Who's Underrated?
- Thread starter plangentmusic
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Wow, IMHO Jaco will be remembered as a composer as much as a bassist when all is said and done.
I'm not even sure why I'm posting on this thread, since I have seen some of the most ignorant statements yet on TB in it. When posters start stating that monster talents like Jaco and Patitucci are overrated bassists, then try to back up their reasoning with the fact that they just don't care for their music, it just makes me want to weep for the lack of musical understanding that exists out there. Its like saying I don't like to listen to Bach, so therefore he is overrated (don't get me wrong, I love Bach, its just an example). Oh well, with opinions that far divorced from reality, it doesn't make an ounce of difference to try to point out the ignorance in such statements. Hopefully the posters of those kind of statements were merely trying to stir up flames...but then people's ignorance does never cease to amaze me. Thankfully most musicians understand the contributions individuals of their achievement level have accomplished, but I guess a few will go on believing the world is flat and want to debate it forever.
You're posting on it because somebody pushed the right buttons when they criticized a player that you like. And that is REALLY what this all boils down to - personal preference and opinion - because there is no litmus test to determine who is the best bassist. My point throughout this has been that Jaco's name is continually regurgitated as if there were no way to debate the point. If you want to talk purely about a player's influence on music, you have to view the whole body of work. In that regard, Jaco's scope was much narrower than Entwistle's. Big, dumb pentatonics and arena rock aside (because we all know that its way more hip to be a jazz player
), more people will recognize "Boris The Spider" than "The Chicken".Hi,
May I suggest that anyone who thinks Victor Wooten is overrated try listening to his pocket playing with Bela Fleck and The Flecktones instead of his solo stuff on YouTube?
Thanks
May I suggest that anyone who thinks Victor Wooten is overrated try listening to his pocket playing with Bela Fleck and The Flecktones instead of his solo stuff on YouTube?
Thanks
You're posting on it because somebody pushed the right buttons when they criticized a player that you like. And that is REALLY what this all boils down to - personal preference and opinion - because there is no litmus test to determine who is the best bassist. My point throughout this has been that Jaco's name is continually regurgitated as if there were no way to debate the point. If you want to talk purely about a player's influence on music, you have to view the whole body of work. In that regard, Jaco's scope was much narrower than Entwistle's. Big, dumb pentatonics and arena rock aside (because we all know that its way more hip to be a jazz player
I have a feeling I'm entering a pointless debate, but who knows, maybe someone will learn something. As I stated in my first post (if you'll re-read it) its got nothing to do with personal preference. Just sticking to the very narrow aspect of bass playing; I did not start my musical interests by listening to the likes of Jaco, Patitucci, Jamerson, Mingus, etc (as a few examples). I started with rock and pop music, ignorant as to the artists themselves, as most probably do growing up in the society in which those genres are the most prevalent. As time went on and I became aware of different players and my love for music increased, I made an effort to understand why certain players names came up again, over and over, as benchmarks for my chosen instrument. There is a reason certain players are renowned not only for their abilities, but also for what they have brought to the table through innovation and change. Saying that Jaco is overrated because he doesn't have a more popular following, is like saying Henry Ford is overrated because Toyotas are more advanced and sell more cars nowdays. A statement like that reveals ignorance to the enormous contributions and revolutions Henry Ford made to the automobile industry and mass production, as does the statement about Jaco.
In our society we reap the benefits of many many pioneers and advancements that we are completely ignorant of. Even though we enjoy the very fruits of their contributions that may seem simple or outmoded with hindsight, that does not diminish their accomplishments. Whether or not you like say, James Jamerson for example, has absolutely nothing to do with what he did to change the very music, say death metal for example, that you may listen to. "I like death metal, most people nowdays like death metal, therefore that silly R&B player Jamerson is so outdated and has nothing to do with what I like and what is popular...why do people think that guy is so good? He has no relevance to death metal playing, thus he is overrated." An opinion like that reveals ignorance, not an informed worthwhile debate. Similar statements about Jaco, as just one example, are just as worthless.
We stand on the shoulders of giants that have enabled us to do what we do, and enjoy what we enjoy. Failure to admire certain of those people based on limited personal opinion, despite their universal acknowledgment, reveals a lack of learning and understanding.
Overrated: Jaco, Paul McCartney.
I can't really think of anyone who's underrated, but yeah, Jaco and Paul are overrated. Don't get me wrong, I like Jazz, and I love the Beatles just as much as the next guy, but those two are put on a pedestal on TalkBass, unnecessarily.
I can't really think of anyone who's underrated, but yeah, Jaco and Paul are overrated. Don't get me wrong, I like Jazz, and I love the Beatles just as much as the next guy, but those two are put on a pedestal on TalkBass, unnecessarily.
Pounding head on table, unsubscribing to this thread.Jack Bruce's influence on Entwistle's sound?
... Enjoy your idiocy on not knowing anything about bass history and who came first and did what first. That comment just proved your narrow-minded knowledge. I see you're very dense at understanding things. I never said Jaco didn't influence people, I said he didn't do it as much as Entwistle.
As for not soloing, I have two gripes. First off, soloing doesn't make a better player, if anything, it's much easier to solo than working in a band setting. Second, no solo efforts? Wow, goes on to show how much you don't know and how much bullcrap is coming out of your mouth as you do not know anything about Entwistle. Cream coming before the Who? Idiocy again. Jack Bruce doing more than Entwistle? Idiocy at it's finest. Again, I don't care for favorites, you seem to be forgetting that. Let me clue you in on what Entwistle did:
- Roundwound string. Currently the most popular string choice. Certantly wasn't before John got his hands on those. Matter of fact, people played flats almost exclusively. By the way, Jaco used the string he designed.
- As a result, he was the originator of the trebly, raunchy bass tone. Nobody in the music industry was doing it before him. Fact.
- Introduced Bi-Amping. It might just seem like just playing loud to you, but getting wide-bandwith was Entwistle's goal, a vision that was ahead anyone else. You ever see Entwistle's Little Manhattan? It wasn't just about being loud.
- Also, it wasn't just bi-amping with normal amps. He had a two dedicated pre-amplifiers with 4 amplifiers, so he could have the cleanest sound possible.
- Alembic. Certantly not the first, but he was the one who popularize it, along with it's active electronics, which was unheard of in popular music by that time. WHo the hell uses active electronics nowadays? Oh yeah, nobody.
- Instead of just developing an already established technique, he created the Typewriter technique which allows for simultaneous string playing, ganing more speed than any other way.
- Such dexterity, that he played quicker that anyone else. More complex, as well.
- While John played a lot of pentatonics, the matter of fact is that for his time that was unheard of in the bass. Fretless playing wasn't.
- He has the Bassist of the Millennium Award.
- He was the first bassist to have bass solo in rock history.
- If it wasn't for him, Marshalls would've never gone past their basic fase of copying Fender. His and Townshend's suggestions are what shaped the Marshall sound. Matter of fact, if they had never used Marshalls, the amps would've never gotten famous as they were the ones that popularized them. By the way, John Entwistle started using Marshalls first, then Townshend followed him. Thank goodness Jack Bruce doesn't play Marshalls...
- Just for the fun of it, Cream started using Marshalls after they saw the Who using them. If it wasn't for Entwistle, Bruce would've never had his sound. That's a fact, by the way.
- Was one of the first who started messing with Feedback. Even before Hendrix.
- He was named the second best bassist on Creem Magazine's 1974 Reader Poll
- Bassists he has influenced: Geezer Butler, Steve Harris, Geddy Lee, Billy Sheehan, Victor Wooten, Tom Petersson, and Chris Squire. All big dumb pentatonic players. This is not even considering the vast amount of unknown players he influenced due to his popularity.
- The popularity of the trebly p-bass is due to him, and it being part of his sound. Yeah, nobody plays p-basses with rounds these days.
- Because of all of his accomplishments, he had an biographical movie made about him.
If you want to learn about his extensive experience with basses, you can read here. I know you'll most probably go :"what about it, he just had tons of basses". It means that he had extensive knowledge about the instrument, moreso than most people. Being a good bass player is certainly subjective, but in Entwistle's case, he was revolutionary in the way he worked with music. Oh, I suggest that you watch his movie, it's on Youtube. I don't really care about who ranks anyone high in their list, because famous or not, an opinion is an opinion. I just included it for the fun of it. As opposed to Jaco, Entwsitle had many solo albums.
I don't really know why people get so butthurt over Jaco. He was an excellent player, just not in the game changing category like Jamerson or Granham is. I mean don't get me wrong, he certainly influenced a bunch of people, just not as much as Entwistle. He didn't change the game like Entwistle did either. John isn't even my favorite bassist, I just know my history well. This argument isn't who sounds better, or has more soul as that is completely subjective. However, facts are facts, and that's what the conversation is about. If you can't get over that, and still masturbate about Jaco, then fine with me. It's a fact that Entwistle contributed to the bass world much more than him. You do not argue with facts. Also, I'll add that I find hilarious that Entwistle is a big dumb pentatonic player because we all know Jack Bruce shredded, tapped and not played pentatonics back in the day. Oh and Jaco is so not a big dumb harmonic player. I mean, by your standards of categorizing things.
By the way, a big dumb pentatonic player at work. Those are definitely not bass chords at the end.
Opinions are opinions regardless of who says them.
How would you know that he's cited more often? Have you talked to all bassists in the entire world? To most of them? Celebrities don't count as their opinions have as much validity as mine.
And? Who listens to Jazz again? Yeah, a much more wider genre than Rock, I'll tell you that.
How would you know this? Because you heard a couple of your buddies or some celebrities?
Opinion
Whether he fits it or not is still an opinion, because you might love his compositions as much as I might hate them. Or his compositional process as well.
Because Entwistle didn't?
Enjoy your petty anger on not knowing anything about basic respectful civility.
I see that you should probably lay off the meth.
Trust me, if I went to my social science buddies and tell them that Mao contributed to Communism much more than Marx ever did, repeat it many times, and then use misinformation to tell them they're completely wrong and that Marx wrote very little in Communism, I would get treated like an idiot as well. The problem is in persisting, and trying to argue with facts, friend.
Trust me, if I went to my social science buddies and tell them that Mao contributed to Communism much more than Marx ever did, repeat it many times, and then use misinformation to tell them they're completely wrong and that Marx wrote very little in Communism, I would get treated like an idiot as well. The problem is in persisting, and trying to argue with facts, friend.
First off, I think Meshell Ndegeocello is seriously underrated. Now that I got that out of the way.
How do you reconcile your opinion with the FACT that the greatest players in the world today DO NOT agree with you?. Living in NY, I have met many of them at Sam Ash and Rudy's on 48th street and at live music venues throughout NYC. Not one has ever even mention the Ox but they have all mentioned Jaco as a major influence when I talked to them. Ironically I met Jaco's nephew, David there last Friday. He was there with Larry Hartke. That kid can really play.
You ever heard the saying "it takes one to know one?". Many if not most of today's greatest players think Jaco is great, some think he is God on bass with few exceptions. The fact that they don't even mention the Ox, what does that say to you?. Again, just curious.
The best way to "change the game" is to have an influence on the players.
Jaco did that and continues to do that.
The Ox?
Not so much.
Do not agree with me on what? Facts? I like to call those kind of people idiots. I never once said that Entwistle was better, more soulful or anything like that. I stated that Entwiste contributed to the bass world more than Jaco did, and that's a fact. See that? As in not an opinion. Let me clear also that bass celebrities are as human as I am and just because they're famous does not mean their opinions have more base than mine, more knowledge to them, or simply that they are better than mine. Taking away the fact that they're considered great, by who? Oh right, you. Before you say anything, even if the whole population agreed on that opinion, it would not turn into a fact because, hey, opinions are opinions.
If I were you, I'd read into the conversation before commenting like this. Someone likes Jaco more? Oh noes! Nobody is allowed to have a different view! What do I care. If it was a big influence to them, then so be it. He certainly wasn't an influence to me, and I play fretless by they way. Besides, being a celebrity does not mean that you know everything about your field. Most don't, by the way, and that includes it's history. They don't know about the Ox? Big deal, much of them don't mention much Jamerson and they inevitably copy him much more than Jaco. Why? Because people like him created the concept, people like Jaco developed it. That includes most bass celebrities, and amazingly, the ones that have influenced me the most, are a part of that group of people that developed it! Nothing wrong with that.
Edit: I want to add that creators of the concept just like developers of it are essential. History is that way, otherwise we would be always stuck, because most of the time isn't about creating something completely new, it's a about taking it further. Jaco did that. Doesn't mean he contributed more to the bass world. Sometimes originator brings something simple to the table and developers contribute much more. This isn't the case, however. Why does Jaco have to be so important and infallibly good? If you love him great, but it doesn't mean because you, or every other bassist loves him, that it has to be a requirement. And like I've stated it many times, John hasn't been a huge influence on me, as other bassist have been.
The best way to "change the game" is to have an influence on the players.
Jaco did that and continues to do that.
The Ox?
Not so much.
I think the best to change the game is actually changing it. Jaco did it in a much more subtle way that Entwistle. I won't start that conversation again, the facts are in this thread, facts are facts. Jaco keeps influencing people just like Entwistle. Just because not many people know Entwistle as much as Jaco doesn't mean it changes history and what each other did. I don't know if people have bad reading skills, but whichever player is "better" has never been the discussion.
I was speaking to a guitarist recently - a guy who I have never played with, and has never even heard me play. He asked me who my favorite bassists were, and gave me a blank stare as I rattled off Gary Thain, Mars Cowling, Dennis Dunaway - guys who would be considered underrated by most peoples' definition. Then he asked me if I liked Jaco. "No", says I - "not in the least". His response?
"How can you call yourself a bassist if you don't like Jaco?"
"How can you call yourself a bassist if you don't like Jaco?"
And I never said Jaco was infallible. Nor did I say that I think he's better than Entwistle.
I'm just pointing out that he is (arguably) cited by more pros as an influence than any other bassist. I've also pointed out his impact on Jazz, as the only electric bassist in their hall of fame.
Another poster has also pointed out that the pros he knows cite Jaco as an influence more than any other bassist.
IIRC, didn't Alembic originate with the Grateful Dead??? Wasn't it Stanley "Bear" Owsley's(famous for other reasons as well) obsession with live sound working with the Dead that eventually led to him designing active electronics on Phil Lesh's Guild Bass? Let's give credit where it's due......
And I never said Jaco was infallible. Nor did I say that I think he's better than Entwistle.
I'm just pointing out that he is (arguably) cited by more pros as an influence than any other bassist. I've also pointed out his impact on Jazz, as the only electric bassist in their hall of fame.
Another poster has also pointed out that the pros he knows cite Jaco as an influence more than any other bassist.
Pardon me, I had posted a list facts and he said that he knows a lot of pro players that would disagree with me. Also, I haven't ever denied Jaco's influence or legacy, I've only stated that Entwistle's has been much bigger.
I want you to quote me exactly what I wrote and then answer me again. Also, no he wasn't the one that designed them. Close, but no cigar.
