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Who's Overrated? Who's Underrated?

I won't get into the pissing contest regarding "overrated," but in terms of underrated....

Gary Thain....I just listened to "Sweet Lorraine" today for the first time in years....DAMN, what a groove that dude could lay down. I really miss that R&B inspired hard rock style....Greg Ridley with Humble Pie was another one from that school....Mel Schacher with Grand Funk....Tiran Porter with the Doobie Brothers....
 
"Facts".

I see.

So it's NOT a fact that Jaco is the only electric bassist in the Jazz Hall of Fame.

C'mon man: the whole concept of "overrated" is subjective by definition.

Leave your pseudo academic jive-a** garbage at the door, please.

Did I ever deny that? While I agree the term overrated is incredibly subjective, that doesn't have to do anything with what I said to the other guy. Let me explain it again, I had posted a list of facts and he told me that some people he knew would disagree with me. See the problem there? I can't disagree with Jaco not being in the Jazz Hall of Fame, can I?
 
:smug:

The best way to "change the game" is to have an influence on the players.

Jaco did that and continues to do that.

The Ox?

Not so much.

By the same token, I think it'd be naive to think that Entwistle didn't influence Jaco to at least some extent.

THAT is why Entwistle is so important. Not because he influenced the most people like some other bassists... but because those other bassists might not exist in their same capacity had it not been for Entwistle.
 
By the same token, I think it'd be naive to think that Entwistle didn't influence Jaco to at least some extent.
Jaco didn't listen to rock - he was into R&B.

THAT is why Entwistle is so important. Not because he influenced the most people like some other bassists... but because those other bassists might not exist in their same capacity had it not been for Entwistle.
True - he was a very visible figure on the bass.
 
Jaco didn't listen to rock - he was into R&B.


True - he was a very visible figure on the bass.

He could have easily known about the Who and Entwistle, just like I don't listen to skiffle and I know who McCartney is. Both were in huge and legendary bands. Second, I think that it is silly to assume that influence is always direct. Do you think when most kids pick up a Marshall and feedback the crap out of it, they think of Hendrix? Certainly not. The fact that Jaco used the strings Entwistle designed, ignorantly or not, is a testament to Entwistle's legacy and influence on the bass world.


I came to realize after years of playing bass who Jamerson is, and how when we all groove we borrow something from him. The biggest influences in music are invisible like that. They just live on everyone's playing.
 
He could have easily known about the Who and Entwistle, just like I don't listen to skiffle and I know who McCartney is. Both were in huge and legendary bands. Second, I think that it is silly to assume that influence is always direct. Do you think when most kids pick up a Marshall and feedback the crap out of it, they think of Hendrix? Certainly not. The fact that Jaco used the strings Entwistle designed, ignorantly or not, is a testament to Entwistle's legacy and influence on the bass world.


I came to realize after years of playing bass who Jamerson is, and how when we all groove we borrow something from him. The biggest influences in music are invisible like that. They just live on everyone's playing.

They're "invisible" because most people don't know that it's Jamerson, or Joe Osborn, or Carol Kaye playing the bass line that they're tapping their foot to.
 
I won't get into the pissing contest regarding "overrated," but in terms of underrated....

Gary Thain....I just listened to "Sweet Lorraine" today for the first time in years....DAMN, what a groove that dude could lay down. I really miss that R&B inspired hard rock style....Greg Ridley with Humble Pie was another one from that school....Mel Schacher with Grand Funk....Tiran Porter with the Doobie Brothers....

...Kenny Aaronson with Stories on "Brother Louie".
Gary Thain was a monster, and a key influence on my playing. I loved Entwistle's sound and the way he filled out a trio - but I came out the other side playing more like Thain.
 
Kenny Aaronson on "Brother Louie," YES.

I'm in the process of rediscovering alot of the great bass players of the 70s. It's a particularly rich vein to mine, IMO. Alot of these players used pretty simple tools, at least by today's standards, mostly Js and Ps, maybe a Thunderbird, Rick or EB-3, no fancy active EQs, racks, no more than four strings. It was all about feel. Of course, this was back in the days when you could actually hear the bass, and a real live musician playing it...
 
Overrated: Jaco
Entwisle
Coca-Cola Products
Paul McCartney
Long Walks on the Beach
Flea
Fieldy
Sunshine
Chris Squire
Victor Wooten
Ketchup Packets
Paul Chambers
Mr. Clean
Hulk Hogan
Doug Wimbish
Patitucci
The President

It's all apples and oranges... in music, numbers aside, there really isn't such thing as a standard measure or unit of influence. Entwisle and Jaco have influenced around the same number of people both directly and indirectly (I'm personally influenced by both). You can't put together lists of "achievements" together as concrete fact, a means of direct comparison.
And what's the point anyway? Why did we pick up the instrument in the first place? I've never thought to myself why playing "oh, I can't wait to engage myself in pointless, spiraling arguments about my favorite bass player!"

That being said, I feel that Alphonso Johnson, Paul Jackson, Reggie Workman, John Wetton, Leonard Hubbard, Ray Shulman, Jymie Merrit, and Doug Watkins are really underrated players.
 
I agree that Paul Jackson is vastly underrated. He has a unique style and a groove that kills.

As for overrated, it's Victor Wooten in a landslide for me. Very talented, but there's not a nanosecond of music he's played that I'm interested in.
 
Unfortunately Victors is pigeonholed. He can groove like its no ones business. He was considered for the Janet Jackson tour a while back but because of his undeserved rep he didnt get the gig. According to Anthony Wellington Vic is a monster country player but of course he doesnt get many of those calls either. Listen to his work on Greg Howes Extraction album.
 
Overrated, underrated by whom?

Entwistle clearly influenced more members of the public than Jaco could - his band's popularity had a lot to do with that.

So maybe people were inspired to pick up a bass because of him, or McCartney.

But then when you ask pros who inspires THEM in their playing and quest for improvement, and Jaco's name is cited more than any other with the possible exception of McCartney and Jamerson.

The whole topic is kind of goofy - everybody has their favorites.
 
Do not agree with me on what? Facts? I like to call those kind of people idiots. I never once said that Entwistle was better, more soulful or anything like that. I stated that Entwiste contributed to the bass world more than Jaco did, and that's a fact. See that? As in not an opinion. Let me clear also that bass celebrities are as human as I am and just because they're famous does not mean their opinions have more base than mine, more knowledge to them, or simply that they are better than mine. Taking away the fact that they're considered great, by who? Oh right, you. Before you say anything, even if the whole population agreed on that opinion, it would not turn into a fact because, hey, opinions are opinions.


If I were you, I'd read into the conversation before commenting like this. Someone likes Jaco more? Oh noes! Nobody is allowed to have a different view! What do I care. If it was a big influence to them, then so be it. He certainly wasn't an influence to me, and I play fretless by they way. Besides, being a celebrity does not mean that you know everything about your field. Most don't, by the way, and that includes it's history. They don't know about the Ox? Big deal, much of them don't mention much Jamerson and they inevitably copy him much more than Jaco. Why? Because people like him created the concept, people like Jaco developed it. That includes most bass celebrities, and amazingly, the ones that have influenced me the most, are a part of that group of people that developed it! Nothing wrong with that.

Edit: I want to add that creators of the concept just like developers of it are essential. History is that way, otherwise we would be always stuck, because most of the time isn't about creating something completely new, it's a about taking it further. Jaco did that. Doesn't mean he contributed more to the bass world. Sometimes originator brings something simple to the table and developers contribute much more. This isn't the case, however. Why does Jaco have to be so important and infallibly good? If you love him great, but it doesn't mean because you, or every other bassist loves him, that it has to be a requirement. And like I've stated it many times, John hasn't been a huge influence on me, as other bassist have been.




I think the best to change the game is actually changing it. Jaco did it in a much more subtle way that Entwistle. I won't start that conversation again, the facts are in this thread, facts are facts. Jaco keeps influencing people just like Entwistle. Just because not many people know Entwistle as much as Jaco doesn't mean it changes history and what each other did. I don't know if people have bad reading skills, but whichever player is "better" has never been the discussion.

You totally missed the point of my post. Also your emotional response shows that your view is driven by...EMOTION AND NOT FACT. I never stated what my opinion was or who I think was more influential, better, etc. Plus I read this entire thread prior to posting. I pointed out that all of the top bass players that I have met (and I have met many) were influenced by Jaco, many felt he changed the game and none hold the Ox in the same regard you do. They never even mentioned him in any way, shape or form. That is a Fact. Its like asking Lebron James who's had more impact on the game of basketball, who advanced it more Magic or Jordan. Lebron's opinion is going to hold more weight than some guy in the stands because he is walking that same road as they did. Trying to get to the same place as they did. He has intimate knowledge through experience that you or I could not possibly possess. So YES, you have a right to your opinion, everybody does. I just feel that their view does and should carry considerably more weight than yours or mine. We do not have the experience or ability that they do (well, maybe you do, I do not.). If we did we would be touring, recording, etc not posting in this sillier by the post thread. "FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS". You really sound like a "Monday morning quarterback".