Double Bass Why are 5-String (low B) upright basses so rare?

[User4843936]

Gorgeous! Do you have any more photos?

I only have more front-on pictures. I might try to do a comparison when I get back home with my other bass, that way you can get some idea of the size of it.

 

[robobass]

The original question, asked by a 5-string slab player is
“Is there a reason that few people play a 5-string upright bass?”
There are lots of reasons. Before answering, I must stress that the difference between slab and upright is huge. Mainly, it's much harder to create a nice sounding 5er upright than a 4er. There is more top tension, so the top is generally thicker. Secondly, to get the low string to be loud enough, it's got to be really thick, and so it's harder to get it to speak and ring well. Other stuff too.

In Germany you see almost only 5ers on the orchestra stage, but most of them are owned by the orchestra, and the personal basses of those players are 4ers. That's because it's rare that a 5-string upright is much good for solo or jazz. The sound is less resonant and especially the pizz tends to be weaker. Not a big problem if there are eight of you, but when you're alone it makes a difference.

There are indeed soloists and jazzers who do play 5, but if you are a beginner looking to play mainly pizz, You really should stick with 4.

 

[Kevan Campbell]

Thank you so much for your responses, everyone!

First of all, let me apologize for not keeping up with the thread I started here. Christmas and New Year's were absolutely full of rough issues and difficulties, not to mention horrendous travel and the typical holiday gig nightmares, and I simply let it slip.

Secondly, let me also apologize for my phrasing. It occurs to me that my original question of "Is there a reason that few people play a 5-string upright bass?" was grossly naive and unresearched, as I hadn't even considered orchestral music or players outside of the United States. Call it ignorance, call it naivety...call it "TheBear trying to jump into something he obviously is very misguided on". So thank you for your correction in pointing out how popular 5-string DB's are in European symphonies.

 

[Kevan Campbell]

Came across the same problems when I started looking for an upright. Made the switch to fivers on EB years ago and wanted to find a five string upright. Bought the first one I literally could find. My teacher scowled at it, but said "we would have to work around it".

Acoustically, there is a distinct drop off playing pizz on the B, not so much arco. Amplified, different story, low B has some authority.

Bass in the foreground happens to be in the way, but that's my 7/8 busetto fiver in the background.

View attachment 3257607

That thing looks awesome, how did you track it down?

 

[Kevan Campbell]

Hi! There are many reasons, if I may say so, about some.

1) Among the bass guitars, too, 5-str are much smaller than 4-str ones. Just bass guitar too much, come across all sorts.

2) You can't compare BG and DB. These are different things and your thinking should be different. A DB is a violin, a BG is a guitar. I have never heard the question why the cello does not have six strings like a guitar..

3) There is a bass viola da gamba. This is an ancient tool, but there are modern Chinese copies. She looks like a double bass, but she can have 5, 6 or 7 strings. And frets.

4) When I came to the jazz festival with a 5-str DB, they laughed at me. The most frequent jokes are the words “harp” and “gusli”.

1. Fair enough. I've been lucky to find 5-string bass guitars that suit me well and aren't particularly rare.

2. The desire I've had for a low B on an upright was to be able to play sub-E notes (mainly with a bow) to acoustic performances.

3. That looks interesting!

4. Not to be rude but I don't have any interest in playing jazz right now. And where I'm at, I'm already used to those kind of jokes about why I'm playing boutique 5's and not Fender 4-string P's.

 

[Jeff Roller]

That thing looks awesome, how did you track it down?

I actually bought it here on TB. When I got the upright "bug" I spent a lot of time watching the DB classifieds, and mine popped up a few hours drive away from me so I pounced.

 

[7615]

Correct. But I would still argue that if I were a double bass builder, I wouldn't sink next month's mortgage payment into 5 string double basses. If I had to guess, I would say they make up maybe 1% of double bass sales, if not less......

.....which is the only reason they are still somewhat "rare". And that was OP's question.

5 string electric basses are no longer a novelty either. But I bet the sales of 5 string Fender Precision basses is a tiny fraction of what the sales of 4 string Fender Precision basses are. Why? P bass players tend to be a bit more traditional.

I would venture a guess that 5 string Jazz bass sales are a much larger slice of the total Jazz sales pie. Why? Jazz bass players tend to be less rooted in tradition for the most part.

Neither is "wrong" or "better". Just different approaches.

It's that simple. All I was discussing was CURRENT market forces. Supply and demand. There is WAY less demand for 5 string double basses, so there is WAY less supply. Period.

If playing anything but classical I would go with a high C on both DB or electric.

 

[7615]

You could just string BEAD.... and work on your thumb technique. (jk)

To cripple oneself on notes you need to play regularly (on the G) in order to access infrequently used notes on the B string - not useful.

 

[Steven Ayres]

If I had to guess, I would say they make up maybe 1% of double bass sales, if not less......

Data point: Over 30 years, about 3% of Kay basses were fivers, but that's diluted by many years in which they weren't built at all. During the years of active fiver production, they were about 6% of the mix.

 

[Carlos2bass]

There is a reason why orchestras like Berlin Phil and many other orchestras in Europe play all with 5 string Basses; the section blends better, no single bass sticks out. Yes the instruments are owned by the orchestra and they audition on their own 4 string instruments to get there; strange but its a fact.

 

[logdrum]

Tune in 5ths. I have a 1/2 inch bass . 38 inch scale. I got me some weich Red Mitchell set but I would need to file the bridge and nut to accommodate the thicker strings. Someone in the FB 5ths tuning page has a 1/4 scale tuned in 5ths. I am not new to 5ths tuning since I can play the mandolin and have done it on my electric bass.

Back to OP yeah correct miced 5 string bass sounds flabby pizz but when properly amplified, they sound huge actually and of course bowed.

 

[wathaet]

There is a reason why orchestras like Berlin Phil and many other orchestras in Europe play all with 5 string Basses; the section blends better, no single bass sticks out.

Every now and then I hear this line of argument. It is pure dogma.

 

[Co.]

There is a reason why orchestras like Berlin Phil and many other orchestras in Europe play all with 5 string Basses; the section blends better, no single bass sticks out. Yes the instruments are owned by the orchestra and they audition on their own 4 string instruments to get there; strange but its a fact.

I think Berlioz wished three different types of basses in the Orchestra, with different tunings and different corresponding sizes. Not a bad idea either.

 

[bassliner50]

Chubby Jackson played a 5 string UB.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

My electrics are exclusively 5 string. My upright is a 1941 Kay M1 4 string. I can't even handle a 4 string upright.
Bob Golihur used to sell (broker) 5 string carved Romanian basses at reasonable prices. Don't know if he still does.

 

[Ric5]

The original double bass had 3 strings

 

[Mark Gollihur]

My electrics are exclusively 5 string. My upright is a 1941 Kay M1 4 string. I can't even handle a 4 string upright.
Bob Golihur used to sell (broker) 5 string carved Romanian basses at reasonable prices. Don't know if he still does.

They were from Bulgaria, and unfortunately the economics of getting them here - and the rising cost of manufacturing them - has made it not a "do-able" option anymore.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

They were from Bulgaria, and unfortunately the economics of getting them here - and the rising cost of manufacturing them - has made it not a "do-able" option anymore.

Bummer. Although as stated I justo to sell my antique upright to someone who can actually play well then upgrade my EBG quiver.

 

[LouisF]

Hello,

I'm thinking of experimenting with a CHEAP five string bass before committing to a real (i.e. expensive) one. I've played them occasionally (one by Bob Ross & Paul Warburton; a Chinese one; a Gagnon Maggini copy) but not sure if I want to live with one. I figure if it doesn't work, I can donate the bass to one of the local schools and walk away. I'm looking at these three:

a) Thomann/Romanian (probably the flat back):
https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomann_44_5str_3_4_europe_double_bass.htm

https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomann_33_5s_3_4_europe_double_bass.htm

b) a Chinese "Pollmann"
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I know these will all have to be reset, with new bridges, end pins etc, but I have most those pieces here from another project that never got off the ground.

Any other ideas (other than, "are you crazy, don't do it!)

Thanks
Louis

PS: I tried a couple of the lower level Christopher 5-strings and they were not a good fit on any level

 

[Rayjay]

There are 5's to be had. I've seen a few Kay's throughout the years. Most 5 string players I believe use a high C. If I'm not mistaken many 5's like the old Kay's were originally built to be tuned E-A-D-F#-A.

Here's my advice. You're an experienced electric player moving to the DB. They're both basses. They're both tuned the same. They use the same vocabulary. Basslines translate from one to the other. You use a low B on the BG so naturally you'll be reaching for those notes on the DB. Right? Hold on there....

That's what I thought when I first started. Nope, it's actually not the same at all!! Totally different technique and timbres. That translates to a completely different playing vocabulary. You can refine a song with an electric bassline until every note is perfect- but when you play the same song on the DB, you'll by necessity of physics and by artistic taste be forced to play it completely differently.

You'll need to take sometime to get used to this new (to you) way. This is my recommendation- get a 4. Start slow. Learn the technique. Learn from a private teacher, which is super important- you NEED to get feedback and personal advice. Once you gain some proficiency, and you immerse yourself in recordings of music that uses a DB and study the sound and expectations, and you learn to play some styles and lines of your favorite DB players and songs, you'll get a sense of how to play the thing in a musical way that serves the song. After a few years of that, once you consider yourself a true double bassist and not just an electric bassist that can play the DB, then decide if the low B is even necessary.

Low C extensions will still probably be the best way to go, but they are very expensive.