why are Foderas so expensive?

[invader3k]

I'd like to buy one, and then smash it to pieces in front of the luthier.



OK, not really.

 

[Captain Scarlet]

Whya are Foderas so expensive? Like others have said, it's part name brand, part high NYC rent, part (expensive) wood stash, part expertise in building/construction, part superior quality, and part economics of supply/demand.

In general, Foderas are priced out of the range I am comfortable paying (well, new ones, anyway). However, I did snag a used fretless bolt-on for $2,500 - quite a steal, probably the best instrument deal I've ever gotten.

Would I want another Fodera? Sure. Would I pay that much for another? No.

But Foderas being so expensive don't bother me - there are so many other bass builders/companies out there offering tons of models and options for every player/playing style at just about every price point. Though I love my Fodera, I'm doing a lot more gigging with my Lakland and F Bass, which I bought for a lot less. Whatever works...

 

[Eublet]

I got into a debate over this some time ago here at talkbass, and Mike Pope got involved. According to him, he says Fodera isn't making a "killing" on these basses because of supply and demand. He said something about the "finincial guys" saying something about not understanding how Fodera was making any money at all based on their current pricing structure, and Fodera should be charging even more. My memory might be a little hazy on the wording, so the quotes I'm using here are generalized to convey the idea, not represent Mike's comments verbatim. I'm sure the thread is still here somewhere for anyone who wants to find it.

The debate ventured into so many different things, like custom bridges, custom tuners, custom preamp, etc. Mike said all these little things add expense, and I believe that. But does having a custom tuner make a Fodera better? Can Fodera really build (or outsource) a better tuner than Hipshot? What about the bridge? Now the preamp I will agree is nice (if you like the tone), and is only available in a Fodera. But all the other custom built things just make me think it's about having it, not about it being "better".

I still believe the reason behind the price is in fact supply-and-demand. I don't think Fodera is "worth" the price if you eliminate the market value aspect, and just reduce the bass to materials and labor. I don't buy the whole aged wood thing as something only Fodera does, as many luthiers do this at much cheaper costs. Same goes for custom components, strings, etc.

I do think Fodera makes very fine instruments, just like many other instruments out there. I just won't pay 2-3 times the price those others cost to have one. In the end, Fodera's price tag is far from worth it to me, and that's all that matters. If it's worth it to you, then definitely go for it. My only objection to many people thinking they have to have a Fodera is that it is "the universal best" out there. As others have said, there is no universal best.

Also, I support Fodera's right to build whatever they want and charge whatever they want. That's not an issue for me. If I heard that Vinny and company where getting filthy rich bulding Fodera basses (which I have NOT), I would be happy for them. Seriously. That's what being an entrepreneur is all about.

 

[AmazingGracePlayer]

 

[phxlbrmpf]

Now that we're talking about watches, didn't Rolex invent the modern wrist watch, though? I think you at least have to give them credit for that. Not that their prices aren't ridiculous, though, and yeah, I read that they tend to be not that accurate but their owners like to put up with it because, well, it's a Rolex.

As for Foderas, I'm pretty much immune to them, I guess. I'm not really a fan of their designs and while I like Victor Wooten, I have to say it is his playing rather than his tone that blows me away. Now if Marcus Miller borrowed him one of his modified Jazzes, I'd be in tone heaven.

 

[nuno.ka]

Maybe if Marcus Miller played a fodera he wouldn't sound like Wooten but just like Marcus.

It's the player! It's the hands! It's the soul! That's where the tone comes from.

Here's a youtube idea, I'd love to see a world class player or players like Miller, Wooten, Manring or whoever playing a 300 dollar bass with a decent combo. A Squier, a Yamaha BB... whatever. The only mod allowed would be a good pro setup and new strings with everything stock. I bet they all would sound GREAT no matter what.

 

[Anthbass]

For me the issue has only two sides: either I like a particular maker's work or I do not. That said, I don't lust after many boutiques basses...but I do lust after Foderas. The likelihood of my ever even playing one is slim, but I really enjoy looking at 'em. Had I the funds, I would certainly own one. If it didn't ring my bell, I'd sell it and move on to the next maker whose work causes my heart to race. That is my reality.

 

[KJung]

Maybe if Marcus Miller played a fodera he wouldn't sound like Wooten but just like Marcus.

It's the player! It's the hands! It's the soul! That's where the tone comes from.

Here's a youtube idea, I'd love to see a world class player or players like Miller, Wooten, Manring or whoever playing a 300 dollar bass with a decent combo. A Squier, a Yamaha BB... whatever. The only mod allowed would be a good pro setup and new strings with everything stock. I bet they all would sound GREAT no matter what.

You are confusing technique with tone. Marcus on a PBass sounds like 'Marcus on a PBass'. Marcus on J Bass sounds like 'Marcus on a J Bass'. Both sound great... both sound different... my guess is, he has strong preference of one over the other.

Does an expensive instrument necessarily sound better than a cheap one... no. Does each instrument sound different, and can one 'speak' to the player better than another... of course.

This 'all in the hands' business is apples and oranges. Technique matters, taste matters, musical knowledge matter, strings matter, cabs matter, basses matter, amps matter.

Of course, all the gear won't make up for sucking... but that would be another discussion

PS... take a look at the vid that's posted on 'recordings' of Victor playing a semi-hollow body with flats. It sounds great, it sounds NOTHING like Victor playing a Fodera with EMG's and roundwounds.... even to the point of different phrasing, etc. IMO

 

[rabass6]

I had the opportunity, a couple of years ago, to see a V.Wooten's showcase.
He used an E*****i backline instead of his Ampeg, and he sounded exactly the same.
After the showcase (it was organized by a large italian retailer who also sells Fodera basses) a respected local liuther had Victor plays one of the basses he builds.
Well, it wasn't Wooten anymore...he tried hard to get his slap tap triplets harmonics stuff from that bass, but he soon understood it wasn't possible so he got back to some simplier "groove" playing...
In the meantime his YingYang 4 strings was avaiable for us to try, so I put my hands on it.
The action was higher than I expected, but that bass sounded and played amazingly...and yes, with the Emg p.ups.
I don't think Wooten would sounds the same on a well setupped Sx..there's a lot more in a well crafted bass than just the shape o the stunning top woods...

I'm in my 3rd Fodera, and I tried a lot of them here.
To me each one is a work of art with it's own sound, there are so many variables in them that makes them as individuals, and each other has got its personality.
And players like Wooten, Jackson, Garrison have totally different needs soundwise and setup-wise, and that in my opinion adds to the ability of Vinnie and his small crew to build the exact instrument for eachone needs.
The cost is higher than many of the other builders but we should keep in mind that many of the current trends in bass building were developed by Fodera more than 10 ys ago. Talk about R&D costs...

 

[RobinBetton]

i think a video of wooten playing that epiphone is on youtube right now? Anyways, if you are an artist you will want to get that "sound" you want out no matter what it takes no matter what bass you are using. If a fodera helps you do that then that's great.

 

[basses55]

I think the debate whether or not Foderas are worth the money will never be answered..and never could be for more than one individual at a time.
I do have to say though that Fodera is one of the very few companies that are set up and willing to build you your "dream one of a kind personal bass"...from scratch (to your specs).
I've done it ..I dont know who else would be so willing to do such a custom job..and to me that was worth something ...extra. Some of the peculiar specs on one of mine:

-custom downsized EMP II shape
-custom body thickness
-custom tuning peg placement on headstock
-rarer heelblock wood
-custom # of frets ( so the body had to be slightly redesigned)
-extended B option with the corresponding shaped headstock
-northern ash- not swamp ash
-custom dummy -coil pups from Aero
-one piece top
-custom nut width

Not to mention that I had at least 4 or 5 different fretted bass design platforms to choose from for all of this- more than the average choice out there. Plus I had THREE possible neck joint designs avail (depending on model). Your choice of different scale lengths too!
They do blocks ( and binding) without blinking an eye and use only birdseye for maple boards. Custom shop pups and custom pre are standard too.
Now how many companies out there will do all that - all those custom specs..and also have all those platform choices avail too? Maybe they "might", "maybe", "will do some but not others", or "definately not", " I'll think about it", "cant" , "sure but I've never done that before so I dont know how it will turn out", "it prob wont work on my design"....etc etc etc.
I see Fodera as more of a company that is designed and set up to build you something that you really cannot have easily somewhere else..a personalized "dream bass" that comes from knowing what you want, what works generally for you, and have it come in a wide choice of general packages from one of the best luthiers in the buisness. That is a rare opportunity.
I'm not saying any of the personal custom specs or choices Fodera offers or will build SHOULD be worth anything more to anyone ......any other formalized production line bass at any level is just as valid if you are totally happy and think it is just what you always wanted and customizing a Fodera is not really needed or desired or GAS'd over at all. But if you have a dream of something specific or have been inspired, know how to put it together, always wanted or thought about "this or that" on bass, possibly eliminate compromises in any area, then maybe a custom Fodera is worth the difference in price to YOU. Value for me with Fodera comes down to the opportunity they have created, the uniqeness of design possibilities , and the level of quality in execution of a personal vision .
I do respect that for many this"value" may not be needed, desired or worth the price charged .

 

[rfclef]

"Why are Fodera's so expensive?" .

Because Indiana Jones wore one in Raiders of the Lost Ark?

 

[puff father]

OK, this is where I meant to post this...

I think Foderas are cool. With a 3 year waiting list they are obviously worth it to enough people. If they were less expensive, either they couldn't keep up with the orders or the waiting would be getting longer and longer.

As far as wanting one, I have found that a $7~9,000 price tag works better than "Gas-X". If you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Most new kids know Vic, but not Anthony. Shame. I'll take the latter over the former, any day.

And if most Foderas went to new kids that might be relevant.



I know a lot of bassists who were exposed to Fodera before Vic. (now) Older bassists with money... a key ingredient in the equation

 

[Brad Johnson]

I imagine Victor Wooten is being paid quite handsomely to play Fodera. If for what ever reason he walked away from Fodera and endorsed (for example) Squier as being the best bass, guess what would happen to Fodera and Squier sales? Yup, marketing 101. To what degree would sales be impacted - who knows, but you can bet that "being like Vic" is a BIG part of Foderas marketing scheme. Don't get me wrong, Fodera's a world class bass but without their fantastic reputation I don't think we would be seeing 6K - 9K basses in their lineup. (I think my used $750 Alembic Epic is easily comparable to a used $4200 Fodera. It's all about the rep.)

I have an instructional video by Victor and he says, "... it doesn't matter what bass you play... for example take away Michael Jordans shoes, he can still play basketball...".

It took me a very long time to understand that high dollars and headstock logos have little to do in guaranteeing the playability and tone of a bass. For me It really comes down to doing some unbiased blind taste testing and going with what my ears and hands tell me is right instead of my eyes.

Thanks,

KT

I could see the logic there if the majority of Foderas I saw were Monarchs. They aren't. The big draws are the singlecuts, which Vic doesn't play.

Based on that, if Vic moved on it would help the next company but I seriously doubt the rep Fodera has built would be affected much if at all at this point. People know who Fodera is now and that's not going to change.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have mixed feelings about Foderas. I certainly don't question the artistry and skills of Vinny and Joey. I've never heard any bad stories about them either.
Some Foderas I've seen have been gorgeous, while others have been so ugly and gauche.
As far as tone, I've heard some players play Foderas that sounded good to me. Others sounded bleh.
Personally, I've only played 3 Foderas in my life. I was not blown away by any of them. But maybe I just haven't tried the Fodera that's right for me yet. I don't know.
Certainly, this is all just my opinion, and it means no disrespect to Fodera at all. If I found one that I thought was beautiful and blew me away as far as tone and playability, and cost somewhere in the $4000 range, I'd go for it.

There's a reason why some are "gorgeous" and some are "ugly and gauche"... that's what the customer asked for . In many cases they order a dream bass and from personal experience I can attest that the majority of custom order customers typically don't have sound and playability as their numbers one and two priorities. That's why tone can be all over the place... and remember, the tone you hate could be someone else's dream tone. The same is true for looks and playability.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

IMO, a lot of people should recognize those similar quality basses that can be had for considerably less money as serious bargains. IME, there's certainly more than $1K worth of materials going into these Foderas, not to mention any labour or overhead. I remember talking with one high end builder and IIRC, it takes his crew about 90 hours to build one of their flagship basses. Even applying a pretty cheap hourly wage of about $10/hour we're already up nearly another $1K. I honestly don't think that Fodera is charging exorbitant prices by any means, quite the contrary in fact. I think that the cost of manufacturing for some of their higher end models would easily be in the $2K+ range, and I don't think that a markup of a few hundred percent is unreasonable (I wouldn't be surprised if the profit margin on the basses was even smaller than what I'm suggesting). Lots of products are marked up a lot more than that.

 

[brandinstroy]

BTW, Victor does have a single cut model. Its an emp II 6 string. his wife got it for him a few years back for his bday.

 

[Jeff Moote]

I remember talking with one high end builder and IIRC, it takes his crew about 90 hours to build one of their flagship basses. Even applying a pretty cheap hourly wage of about $10/hour we're already up nearly another $1K.

I know it was an example, but $10/hr is nowhere near what a good craftsman is worth. The average professional out there is making say $35/hr, so why shouldn't these guys? That turns your number for labour into about $3k. Add $1k of raw material, and the dealer's cut... hmm that's a pretty small profit margin if you ask me!

 

[Alistair R]

Maybe if Marcus Miller played a fodera he wouldn't sound like Wooten but just like Marcus.

It's the player! It's the hands! It's the soul! That's where the tone comes from.

Here's a youtube idea, I'd love to see a world class player or players like Miller, Wooten, Manring or whoever playing a 300 dollar bass with a decent combo. A Squier, a Yamaha BB... whatever. The only mod allowed would be a good pro setup and new strings with everything stock. I bet they all would sound GREAT no matter what.

Actually Marcus does play a Fretless Emporer 5. Great bass, awesome fretless tone.