Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
why are Foderas so expensive?
- Thread starter quadrogong
- Start date
If we consider the original question posed in this thread, I'd say that Fods have no physical superiority to basses half the price, but that's no reason not to charge what they do.
Stretchneck no, Beaver yes, and often see fliers for gigs at The Three Pigeons and The White Hart, both a mere mile down the road from The Village Hall and right near where I work/live. Sadly I've never seen them. I'm not allowed out often
and only get to these pubs of a Friday lunchtime with my work colleagues. But believe it or not we have considered a work outing one night to see Beaver, as they have caught our eye...
Stretchneck no, Beaver yes, and often see fliers for gigs at The Three Pigeons and The White Hart, both a mere mile down the road from The Village Hall and right near where I work/live. Sadly I've never seen them. I'm not allowed out often
and only get to these pubs of a Friday lunchtime with my work colleagues. But believe it or not we have considered a work outing one night to see Beaver, as they have caught our eye...
I own Alembics, a Pedulla, Rickenbackers, Fenders, Gibsons, a Lakland, a Peavey, a Martin, etc. I have also visited the Alembic factory in person. Having owned what I've owned in the 30 years I've been playing I can say this:
No bass is worth more than what one is willing to pay.
Is an Alembic, Fodera, Sadowsky, Lakland, etc. worth it? If one likes it, then yes, it is.
Is there a difference in quality? Absolutely IME. Taking the Alembic example, there is just no comparison between an Alembic quality-wise and most of the brands I've used and/or tried throughout the years. At the factory, I watched instruments being handwired, hand sanded, etc. Frets were put in by hand. The sanding blocks they use are made to fit the hand of the craftsman using them. They make and wind their own pickups on a machine designed and built by Ron Wickersham, one of the founders of the company. All of their hardware (save tuning machines) are made in house from solid brass. The woods are top notch, and the control cavities are painted with paint that includes actual silver, meaning no noise - none, nada. But silver costs money, and the price changes according to the precious metals market. All of these things conspire to make for a very expensive instrument.
Does this mean that they should cost as much as they do? Again, using the Alembic example, I say yes. They are a small company, and family owned. They don't get the huge, volume discounts Fender, Gibson, etc. get, so they have no choice but to pass the cost along to the customer if they want to sustain their business.
Simply put, Alembics are the finest bass guitars I've played in the 30 years I've been a bass player. Are they for everyone? No. But that's OK - we're lucky as a community to have so many choices at so many price ranges. An instrument doesn't have to be expensive to be good, or great. I have a '73 Fender Jazz Bass that I absolutely love. Quality wise, it sucks - lousy neck pocket, etc. But it just feels so good.
Buy what you want and play what you want. If you want it and can afford it, go for it. If not, there are any number of basses that will meet your requirements.
That's true, and when he plays it, he sounds nothing like the "Marcus we know and love slap tone". Because it's a completely different sounding instrument and he plays it differently than his jazz.
I've just received word from the corperate office.......If you think Fodera is too expensive or not worth it....it's OK.....YOU DON"T HAVE TO BUY THEM. But for the love of God, would you please stop obsessing about them!?!?
the only thing I'd like to add to this, without actually firing at anyone in particular (seriously), is it would be nice to have a sticky about 'what does x seemed so overpriced' thread, cause its not just foderas that get this thread ohhh, let's say, every 6 months or so.
completely an economic thing, and of course there are diminshing returns past a certain price point, but the talk of fodera and sadowsky and some others get about their prices REALLY seem to come up frequently.
A sticky with ALL the 'why is x overpriced' might really direct any new guys to put his two cents into a thread that already has this sentiment, rather then people rehashing what they said 6 months ago.
If we are concerned at all with repetetive conversations....I mean that is why a lot of people say use the search function, right? Am I the only person who thinks this? If so.....I have no issues with being told to shut up.
Geoff St. Germaine
Commercial User
- Aug 31, 2001
- 6,267
- 302
- Disclosures
- Owner - St. Germaine Guitars
I know it was an example, but $10/hr is nowhere near what a good craftsman is worth. The average professional out there is making say $35/hr, so why shouldn't these guys? That turns your number for labour into about $3k. Add $1k of raw material, and the dealer's cut... hmm that's a pretty small profit margin if you ask me!
I'm sure that $10/hour is low, but I doubt that many, if any people working for any of the bigger boutique builders are making $35/hour ($72K/year). I'm not really sure what you mean by professional... to me that means doctor, lawyer, etc.
Anyway, it was simply for illustrative purposes. Even at $10/hour + building materials + overhead there isn't a lot of room for profit.
Especially (in the case of Fodera) when you are paying rent/leasing in NYC.
And I definitely think this kind of any whim customization should be entered into with caution. Ken Smith will politely (usually) explain why he will not do certain types of requests. Mostly it has to do with woods he considers inappropriate or things he's tried years ago that didn't work as well, so he has narrowed what he will change in order that every bass is a "Smith" and that has a certain amount of value in consistency from instrument to instrument. Not only knowing how to do many things, but knowing what not to do as well is part of the experience you pay for in a top level maker. For me, and not that everyone should do the same, I want the instrument that Fodera or Ritter or Smith made for "himself". My playing style is what it is and perhaps their favorite instrument would be different from mine, but I want the maker as player perspective in there. If these guys can build basses worth $5K+, I'm not going to presume to advise them on what I want beyond a very limited point.There's a reason why some are "gorgeous" and some are "ugly and gauche"... that's what the customer asked for
A very funny thing I did when I was first playing my fretless Ritter in the store was ask the proprietor about switching the strings for some half-flats. I was worried about the ebony fingerboard and the roundwounds. The fellow looked at me like I was insane. He told me he didn't have the strings in stock and he'd order them for me, but suggested in the mean time that I "play on those for a while".
After about a week, I would have killed before changing the strings. Moral of story could be two things. Either I don't know what I want because I haven't heard it embodied this way before, and I should leave luthierie to luthiers. Or the instrument as delivered was so profoundly different that I preferred it over what I previously thought was "my sound". It was not a custom ordered instrument, but I'd say it is far closer than I'd have come if I had specified certain parts and wood choices. The fancier bass I have is simple solid mahogany underneath. If that is the wood that sounds the best, why not? If it sounds the best why not embellish it with a beautiful painted finish? Should the painted finish be less than quilted bookmatched maple? I don't trouble myself with that. It's irrelevant. The feel, the playability, the precise manufacture, the incredible sound;- that's relevant. I'm just the care taker of these instruments during the first chapter of their lives.
If we want to talk about other makers that come up to these standards in instrument building we can mention Hauser, Stradivari, Jimmy d'Aquisto, John D'Angelico, and some others for sure, but there are not any "Leo Fender" single maker Fenders. There are some Bob Benadettos made by the Fender custom shop, which is a very capable shop. But comparing factory made to individual maker is somewhat useless. Price the Benedetto against a Fender from the same shop.
As for custom parts like bridges, yes attention to all these details matter. Bridges more than tuners, but all of it matters a little. I wouldn't want to see a hipshot bridge on my Ritter any more than I would want Hemi headers on my Volvo. Check out the bridges that the custom makers make. You'll find functional improvements usually or they would just put a hipshot on there if they thought it would work. Those that can't come up with something on their own or think the hipshot is as good as it gets put one of those on.
I've sat with four or five people at a time with my Fodera and let each of them play it... and they all sounded different.
If you want to believe the tone isn't in your hands, cool. It's very easy to prove otherwise. That's not to say the instrument doesn't have a huge impact but it can have that impact AND STILL vary from player to player.
For as many custom bridges as I've seen over the years, I can't recall a single one that actually "improved" on what Hipshots do. Yes, the custom ones are different but I haven't seen any intonate any better or perfom any more stably than Hipshot. Most seem to merely be reinventing the wheel IMO.
ok, I should clarify - I agree with you that "professional" makes me think of actual regulated professions too. I should have used another example - a 'professional musician' can charge $50/hr for lessons easily.
I agree that most people working for the boutique builders are making $72K a year, but a skilled trade like a pipefitter or electrician does
The fact that $10/hr is closer to the truth only emphasizes the point - these people are undercharging for their work.
A couple months ago I caught Vic at a clinic at the local music store. If you hear him play one of his Foderas while sitting 10 feet away, you'll think they cost $20k and are worth it. But then again, he could probably make a wet cardboard box sound good too.
That night, I saw his band and what blew me away the most was what his brother Reggie can do with - and the sound he can get from - a $150 Squire Strat.
So with that, it may be the hands, or is it the instrument?
Maybe a little of both.
That night, I saw his band and what blew me away the most was what his brother Reggie can do with - and the sound he can get from - a $150 Squire Strat.
So with that, it may be the hands, or is it the instrument?
Maybe a little of both.
The acid test of whether or not Foderas are over-priced or not (IMHO), would be "The Car Park Test".
Go to the factory (sorry, "workshop"
) and check out the employees car park.
If it looks like "Car Park A", we should institute an immediate boycott of their products, on the grounds that they are, in fact, over-priced.
If on the hand, it looks like "Car Park B", we should realise that we've actually stumbled upon the "Guitar Center Public Relations Department" car park, by mistake and beat a hasty retreat!
:
Car Park A:
Car Park B:
I'm relying on your sense of humor to prevail here folks .
Go to the factory (sorry, "workshop"
) and check out the employees car park. If it looks like "Car Park A", we should institute an immediate boycott of their products, on the grounds that they are, in fact, over-priced.
If on the hand, it looks like "Car Park B", we should realise that we've actually stumbled upon the "Guitar Center Public Relations Department" car park, by mistake and beat a hasty retreat!
:Car Park A:
Car Park B:
I'm relying on your sense of humor to prevail here folks
.What would be interesting is for anyone here to go into a place that sells these top-line boutique instruments, wearing a blindfold. His friend hands him one bass after another, and he has to rate the sound and playability, and estimate how much he'd be willing to spend for each one. His friend makes a list of make/model and the price the tester is willing to spend. Let's say, 20 different basses.
Then they repeat the procedure, and get a second estimate for each bass, but played in an entirely different order. All basses tested with electronics set for neutral, and each through the same sound system.
Finally, make a third pass through all the basses, in a new order, but this time with the blindfold off so the tester knows exactly what he's playing each time.
At the end of this exercise (say, 1 minute per test, so we can do the whole test in an hour), how close do you suppose anyone here would come (a) between their "willing to pay" price, and the actual sale price; and (b) between their prices the first time through, the second, and the third?
I'm willing to bet for most people here, the first and second passes would be much closer together than either of them comes to the third. I'm willing to bet the Fodera bass would fall somewhere in the middle ranking of the blindfold tests. I'm willing to bet the blindfold ranking wouldn't correlate particularly well at all with the reputation ranking.
And I'm willing to bet that despite their blindfold preferences, most people here would walk out STILL convinced the best-reputation basses were the best instruments. Alternatively, if part of this exercise were to actually *give* the top-rated blindfold bass to the tester, he'd walk out a bit disappointed that he hadn't selected any of the "best" that he'd tested.
For the most part, what people hear is what they expect to hear, and what they like is what they expect to like. If they don't know what they're hearing, the basses they like best will definitely overlap the basses they "know" aren't as good.
Then they repeat the procedure, and get a second estimate for each bass, but played in an entirely different order. All basses tested with electronics set for neutral, and each through the same sound system.
Finally, make a third pass through all the basses, in a new order, but this time with the blindfold off so the tester knows exactly what he's playing each time.
At the end of this exercise (say, 1 minute per test, so we can do the whole test in an hour), how close do you suppose anyone here would come (a) between their "willing to pay" price, and the actual sale price; and (b) between their prices the first time through, the second, and the third?
I'm willing to bet for most people here, the first and second passes would be much closer together than either of them comes to the third. I'm willing to bet the Fodera bass would fall somewhere in the middle ranking of the blindfold tests. I'm willing to bet the blindfold ranking wouldn't correlate particularly well at all with the reputation ranking.
And I'm willing to bet that despite their blindfold preferences, most people here would walk out STILL convinced the best-reputation basses were the best instruments. Alternatively, if part of this exercise were to actually *give* the top-rated blindfold bass to the tester, he'd walk out a bit disappointed that he hadn't selected any of the "best" that he'd tested.
For the most part, what people hear is what they expect to hear, and what they like is what they expect to like. If they don't know what they're hearing, the basses they like best will definitely overlap the basses they "know" aren't as good.
Yes there is. The fit and finish, not to mention to tonal qualities, sustain, custom electronics, etc. are that much better. I play a Ken Smith BT6EG and still look forward to the day when my custom Fodera is done.
There are those who will tell you a lesser priced bass is just as good, and to their ears it may sound that way; someone that knows the sound and playability of Fodera will never say it though.
It's like explaining the feel of a fitted dress shirt to someone who buys them at Sears. (No offense to Sears).
For someone stuck with Tobias and Carvin you sure are willing to bet a lot.
Seems to me that you have a whole lot of opinions but not much proof to back it up. Granted you may not be able to discern the difference between a Tobias and a Fodera, but please don't assume there isn't one. Perhaps for the style you play it wouldn't be appropriate, but don't start suggesting that a Beamer is as good as a Bentley. There is no comparison between the likes of Fodera or Alembic and their less expensive counterparts.
Price points do affect purchasability, but never assume that just because you like what you have there can be nothing better worth pursuing.
It's not in your hands. It's in your hands AND your instrument AND your rig and the room your in, etc. etc. To say "it's in your hands" is an oversimplification, not to mention just another cliche that's thrown around too easily. In certain circumstances, I can understand its application. But when the statement stands alone without any context, it is blatantly false.I've sat with four or five people at a time with my Fodera and let each of them play it... and they all sounded different.
If you want to believe the tone isn't in your hands, cool. It's very easy to prove otherwise. That's not to say the instrument doesn't have a huge impact but it can have that impact AND STILL vary from player to player.
