Agreed--why make it harder if we don't need to...
If you don't like the lines--don't have them.
For my first fretless bass I preferred a lined one--but if I get another I'm okay either way--but would still want lines or other markers on the side.
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Why are lined Fretless even a thing?
- Thread starter citizenchris099
- Start date
If you don't like the lines--don't have them.
For my first fretless bass I preferred a lined one--but if I get another I'm okay either way--but would still want lines or other markers on the side.
Can’t agree more to this post.
I don’t understand why people here think it is cheating or why some think lines don’t help. It is obvious that it helps many players to play more in tune. Even the top players. As I said before my opinion is that in general players with lined necks play more in tune than players with unlined necks. I see this with my students but also with famous players. To me that is the proof that lines help to play more in tune.
It proves nothing of the sort. All it proves is that there are different approaches to achieving secure intonation. Some prefer methods based visual references and others prefer the more traditional methods based on posture, position and aural feedback. All lines do is provide someone with untrained hands a fast-track to playing with reasonable intonation without unnecessarily knowing if they are actually in tune. But in the end you still need the traditional skills to really play in tune, i.e. knowing what 'in tune' actually sounds like.
But you still need to know what in tune sounds like. And the minute you pick up the bow all bets are off as the weight and speed of the bow all affect pitch which has to be 'managed' by the left hand. Playing to the marker is pointless.
I don’t agree. To me it proves a lot. If the majority of players (including famous top players, not only untrained ones!) with a lined neck play more in tune than the ones with an unlined neck then that proves it helps. I am not saying you don’t have to use your ears with a lined neck.
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When sanding a rosewood fretless neck which has wood markers I thought I'd use a sharpie to help guide the process, and in the end I had to colour in the whole neck. So now the neck has very faint markers... Best of both worlds? Sadly, the side markers are in the 'fretted' positions...
I don't like it just because it's ugly. Anyone who likes or needs should use a lined fingerboard. There is a technical discussion about tone changing over the plastic lines and/or different dilation from plastic and wood, but that is not the subject here. That said, let's joke.
What is the proof? Beyond anecdotes supported by a good spattering of confirmation bias. Unless you have two side by side recordings of the same piece played by the same players on lined and unlined boards there is no proof of anything. How do you know that your favourite lined player will immediately make measurably degraded intonation on an unlined board. Or that a given unlined player's intonation will be objectively and immediately improved by playing on a lined board. I can tell you that mine would not be improved by lines.
Goodness, OF COURSE you need to know what in tune sounds like. .
This is dangerously close to getting off topic for an electric bass thread but as someone who works primarily as an upright (classical, jazz,theater) bassist I have to ask. Where did you ever get the idea that the speed and weight of the bow alter the pitch? The length of the string is what determines the pitch and this is altered by the left hand. This is so elementary that it is embarrassing even having to point it out. You can only alter the note very slightly by altering speed and weight of the bow and that is VERY slightly and temporarily to the point of it being negligible. As you choke the note out of existence using pressure or speed you will hear it flatten a tiny bit just before the note dies. But don't take my word for it, try this experiment: Take your upright bass (an EUB is fine as well) and your French or German bow and play an Eb on your A string. Now without moving the fingers of your left hand and using only the speed and weight of the draw of your bow (in either direction) produce a long tone F, D, or even an E. The results speak for themselves. Even producing an altered long tone Eb - sharp or flat - would work. Again the results speak for themselves.
As far as markers go they are basically guideposts to get you in the area and as such are most useful (to me at least) when you are jumping into that region of the neck from elsewhere - in other words shifting by larger intervals. I Never suggested abandoning your ear and using only the marker as the only guidepost to intonation. You assumed too much there.
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I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition. I really do appreciate the fact that you are endorsing proper technique and using one's ears to help produce good intonation but I think in your post you go a bit too far. One shouldn't assume that just because one uses visual references that:
1. They are thereby abandoning their ears using visual cues alone.
2. They are beginners.
3. They are not also using correct posture or position (not sure what you mean there) or their ears.
When you say "All lines do is provide someone with untrained hands...." I have to disagree. Highly trained players use these things. It is one more tool to help you. It doesn't mean that you abandon all else if you have lines on your fretless.
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I've never understood what possible difference it could make...playing fretless is FREEDOM. I won and play both and when that beautiful freedom hits, I couldn't possibly tell you what colour the fingerboard is, if there are lines or not or even where I am...I am expressing myself in my way and I AM FREE~
HA, this just goes to show me how different we all are as players! Playing a lot of upright puts me in the frame of mind that I look forward to playing a fretted electric bass when the call comes. To me, THAT is freedom from constantly having to be so careful with my left hand and worrying constantly about my intonation. It is fun to hear your perspective. Thanks!!
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In my playing, I use visual cues for 2 things:
1. visualizing the notes on the fingerboard (mental map).
2. providing an approximate location of where to play in-tune on the fingerboard.
Lined fretless basses provide me no useful help for any of these 2 goals. There several reasons for that:
- the lines are located on the front side of the fingerboard, and they are out of my sight in my normal playing posture: in order to see them I would have to either tilt the bass upward, which puts some strain on the left hand, or to bend forward akwardly. What I can see very well, though, are the side dots (more on this below).
- concerning the usefulness of lines for visualizing the layout of the notes on the fingerboards, lines (assuming I would see them) are not good for me because there are too many of them: with one line per chromatic note, it is easy to make a confusion between them (eg. 8 th and the 9th lines can be easily be confused with each other). Side dots located at the positions of lines 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24 (with double dots on 12 and 24), on the other hand provide, a clear map of the fingerboard, and are perfect for this purpose.
- unfortunately, presumably because the bulk of the market for lined fretless basses are bassists who mostly play (or started on) fretted bass, makers place the side dots on their lined fretless basses in the same place as they would on a fretted bass, i.e., in the middle between 2 lines: thus those side dots are of no help at all to me for intonation, and just through me off badly.
- fortunately, on unlined fretless basses, makers place the side dots exactly on the position of the (absent) lines, which is right they should be if one wants to use them as visual cues for intonation. That is why unlined fretless basses are better for me than lined ones, both for orientation and for intonation. If there would be lined fretless basses with side dots located at the lines, they would be fine for me (I would use the side dots and ignore happily the lines that I anyhow don't see). As far as the "missing dots" are concerned, with a proper hand shape, it is not a problem for me to interpolate between existing dots (though I find that the "double" dots on 12 and 24 are suboptimal in this respect: it would be better to have these "on top of each other", instead of "side-by-side" as they usually are, as they would provide a more accurate visual cue of the octave).
Now some precision on how I use the side dots as an assistance for intonation: as I mentioned above, any visual cue (either lines or dots) provide at best an approximate location of where to play to be in-tune (even with properly set-up bridge); this is due to physical difference between a wide and soft finger versus a sharp and hard fret. The fine-tuning has to be obtained by a combination of ear-training, and muscle memory, together with a very reliable hand and body posture. Also, it is important to include in one's playing open strings and harmonics, which help in monitoring the accuracy of intonation. Practicing some dedicated exercises with closed eyes (I am not talking about performing) also helps sharpening the earing accuracy and build-up the muscle memory.
I also stress that this is what works for me (primarily double bassist, having never touched a fretted bass), and it is clear that others may prefer lined fretless basses for many good reasons. I see no point about claiming that one way or the other would be better in general.
1. visualizing the notes on the fingerboard (mental map).
2. providing an approximate location of where to play in-tune on the fingerboard.
Lined fretless basses provide me no useful help for any of these 2 goals. There several reasons for that:
- the lines are located on the front side of the fingerboard, and they are out of my sight in my normal playing posture: in order to see them I would have to either tilt the bass upward, which puts some strain on the left hand, or to bend forward akwardly. What I can see very well, though, are the side dots (more on this below).
- concerning the usefulness of lines for visualizing the layout of the notes on the fingerboards, lines (assuming I would see them) are not good for me because there are too many of them: with one line per chromatic note, it is easy to make a confusion between them (eg. 8 th and the 9th lines can be easily be confused with each other). Side dots located at the positions of lines 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24 (with double dots on 12 and 24), on the other hand provide, a clear map of the fingerboard, and are perfect for this purpose.
- unfortunately, presumably because the bulk of the market for lined fretless basses are bassists who mostly play (or started on) fretted bass, makers place the side dots on their lined fretless basses in the same place as they would on a fretted bass, i.e., in the middle between 2 lines: thus those side dots are of no help at all to me for intonation, and just through me off badly.
- fortunately, on unlined fretless basses, makers place the side dots exactly on the position of the (absent) lines, which is right they should be if one wants to use them as visual cues for intonation. That is why unlined fretless basses are better for me than lined ones, both for orientation and for intonation. If there would be lined fretless basses with side dots located at the lines, they would be fine for me (I would use the side dots and ignore happily the lines that I anyhow don't see). As far as the "missing dots" are concerned, with a proper hand shape, it is not a problem for me to interpolate between existing dots (though I find that the "double" dots on 12 and 24 are suboptimal in this respect: it would be better to have these "on top of each other", instead of "side-by-side" as they usually are, as they would provide a more accurate visual cue of the octave).
Now some precision on how I use the side dots as an assistance for intonation: as I mentioned above, any visual cue (either lines or dots) provide at best an approximate location of where to play to be in-tune (even with properly set-up bridge); this is due to physical difference between a wide and soft finger versus a sharp and hard fret. The fine-tuning has to be obtained by a combination of ear-training, and muscle memory, together with a very reliable hand and body posture. Also, it is important to include in one's playing open strings and harmonics, which help in monitoring the accuracy of intonation. Practicing some dedicated exercises with closed eyes (I am not talking about performing) also helps sharpening the earing accuracy and build-up the muscle memory.
I also stress that this is what works for me (primarily double bassist, having never touched a fretted bass), and it is clear that others may prefer lined fretless basses for many good reasons. I see no point about claiming that one way or the other would be better in general.
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I don't get why the "purists" get their panties in a knot over people that use lined fretboards. If you don't like it, don't use one. We're making music. This isn't the SATs, there is no cheating. The goal is to play what's in your head. Who gives a shirt how you get there? 
Are you referring to my post? I am not a purist and took care to explain what works and does not work for me , while pointing out that I clearly understand it may be very different for other people.I don't get why the "purists" get their panties in a knot over people that use lined fretboards. If you don't like it, don't use one. We're making music. This isn't the SATs, there is no cheating. The goal is to play what's in your head. Who gives a shirt how you get there?
I have not seen in this thread any post of "purist" talking about "cheating". We are simply discussing different approaches. The diversity of views and approaches may be interesting for some people, if it's not for you.
I don't like side dots. They force me to think about fret number instead of the note to be played. When I gave up side dots, my fingerboard understanding improved. Everyone has preferences. Give me an unmarked fingerboard whether it is fretted or not.
I appreciate your final paragraph. Sadly I think several people will read the first part of your post and feel that you hate people with different opinions than yourself instead of reading your entire post and realizing you were just explaining your preference and its reasons.
I didn't even read your post, so no, it's not all about you.
Actually, I don't think in terms of "dot number" but in terms of notes like you. I know where the notes are, both in absolute and with respect to each other.
On my DB, I have put a dot on 7 and 12 only: the dot on 7 is not needed to find the D on G string (the hand goes there automatically), but it helps me to visually locate the C or E, if I need to start a phrase there. Same for the dot on 12: I use it access the high A, or Ab or Bb cold.
