Why are lined Fretless even a thing?

[SteveCS]

I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition. I really do appreciate the fact that you are endorsing proper technique and using one's ears to help produce good intonation but I think in your post you go a bit too far. One shouldn't assume that just because one uses visual references that:

1. They are thereby abandoning their ears using visual cues alone.
2. They are beginners.
3. They are not also using correct posture or position (not sure what you mean there) or their ears.

When you say "All lines do is provide someone with untrained hands...." I have to disagree. Highly trained players use these things. It is one more tool to help you. It doesn't mean that you abandon all else if you have lines on your fretless.

I didn't assume anything. My point was to counter the idea proposed that lines inevitably lead to improved intonation and that, by extension, unlined players cannot achieve or exceed the same security of untonation as lined players. This is simply not true. Which actually infers that it anything but either/or. I only mentioned inexperienced fretless players 1) in the context of perhaps getting a push-start from lines which could get them appearing to play in tune faster than they perhaps otherwise might have done, and 2) they are the ones most likely to drink the instant-results-kool-aid. But like all 'accelerator' methods the returns diminish over time - provided good techinique is developed the usefulness declines. Of course development of good technique is solely the responsibility of the player and for some it never happens. The risk with lines is that you come to rely on them and either never develop good technique or never develop full trust in your hands. Which is fine, and maybe the better option for the occasional fretless player whatever their other experience.

By 'position' I was referring to reliable shifting whilst maintaining hand posture. In other words the hand and fingers working as a unit, with the arm moving just the hand, and the fingers dropping into the right place without wiggling, rolling or twisting. Just straight down in exactly the right spot.

Goodness, OF COURSE you need to know what in tune sounds like. .

.... Where did you ever get the idea that the speed and weight of the bow alter the pitch? The length of the string is what determines the pitch and this is altered by the left hand. ...You can only alter the note very slightly by altering speed and weight of the bow and that is VERY slightly and temporarily to the point of it being negligible.
... But don't take my word for it, try this experiment: Take your upright bass (an EUB is fine as well) and your French or German bow and play an Eb on your A string. Now without moving the fingers of your left hand and using only the speed and weight of the draw of your bow (in either direction) produce a long tone F, D, or even an E. The results speak for themselves. Even producing an altered long tone Eb - sharp or flat - would work. Again the results speak for themselves.

...

My point wasn't about using the bow to radically adjust pitch (or even play a different note - really? How did that come through in my post?) but about being mindful of how different types of movement of the right arm may induce movement in the left hand relative to the instrument which can in turn impact intonation, and how good posture and active listening can help in this regard, whereas visual markings will not. The same can happen with electric bass - moving the right hand to a different playing position can change how the instrument hangs on the body which in turn changes the 'attitude' of the left hand relative to the fingerboard in a given position. Again, a little mindfulness and some good posture helps keep things in check. Visual markers do not as the viewing angles change all the time.

But whether any of this matters really depends on an individual's acceptance of what is good enough. For a lot of people, 5 cents either way is acceptable as 'good enough'. For me, as I've said in other threads before, 2 or 3 cents either way gets my ears burning and is not acceptable.

 

[Les Fret]

Some are really over analyzing the lined vs unlined thing. To me what only matters is the result: does it sound nice and in tune or not? If you can achieve this faster or easier by a lined neck use that. If not use an unlined neck. Looks don’t matter to me.

It just can’t stand it when people say that lined necks are training wheels or for untrained players. That just isn’t true. Many top players have proven that.

 

[SteveCS]

It just can’t stand it when people say that lined necks are training wheels or for untrained players. That just isn’t true. Many top players have proven that.

Equally, I can't stand it when people assert that lines guarantee better intonation than is possible without. That is also untrue. In the interests of maintaining cordial exchanges it is probably best if we agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Abner]

It just can’t stand it when people say that lined necks are training wheels or for untrained players. That just isn’t true. Many top players have proven that.

Where are all these posts of people saying they are like training wheels? The only time I hear lines being conflated with training wheels is when somebody like you comes along and complains about all the people calling them a crutch. Play whatever works for you. Why care about what somebody else is playing? (Yeah, I know... "You must be new around here — welcome to Earth.")

 

[kesslari]

Equally, I can't stand it when people assert that lines guarantee better intonation than is possible without. That is also untrue. In the interests of maintaining cordial exchanges it is probably best if we agree to disagree on this point.

I don't see that point being made on this forum very often. I do see the "Training wheels" sentiment.
Me, I can't stand it when people say that crocodiles make better peanut butter than penguins do.

 

[WG Plum]

Can there just be sticky on this topic? This **** is so old.

 

[SteveCS]

I don't see that point being made on this forum very often.
...

Perhaps, but it is no less off-base. In fact, I believe certain types of markers can, used properly, help to train good posture. But I will contend that the limiting factor is posture, not the presence or otherwise of significant visual references.

Can there just be sticky on this topic? This **** is so old.

One could say the same for the 'P or J' threads, or 'P with Flats', or 'Fingers vs Pick', or 'Tube vs. Class D', or '1-2-4 vs OFPF', all of which are equally recurrent.

 

[WG Plum]

I guess. For whatever reason, the other debates don't feel so utterly tiresome and pejorative.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

This is a sincere question and I felt it was related to technique hence why I posted here. Apologies if this isn't the correct forum.

So the only possible reason I can see for putting "fret" lines on a fretless is for people who literally stare or look at their fretboard while playing(?)
Do that many people do this while playing?

I'm told I play with my bass fairly high. My strap from button hole to button hole is 42".
I can only see the side of my neck while playing and If I try I can see a semi angled view of the frets from 12 up.
My point being I can't even really see my frets or theoretical lines if I were to play that sort of fretless. Is this abnormal?

I will say that I find playing fretless based on position dot markers (which my wife a Celist says is a bit of cheating lol) effortless. Lines would only distract me.
I find it espeically odd that relatively mainstream Bass personalities such as Scott Devine espouse the virtues of fret lines.

Anyhoo...rant over.

They are there because of the same reason why the piano has black keys, and the guitars/basses have fret markers/dots. Instruments are tools to make you achieve your artistic goals the easiest way. If looking at the fret lines is cheating, then a carpenter who uses an electric drill is a cheater too.

 

[jzucker]

anyone who thinks lines are a crutch after hearing jaco, willis or bono probably needs to re-evaluate things...

 

[Papageno]

A point I am trying to understand is posture.

Leaving aside whether lines are necessary or not for good intonation, which obviously is different for different players (a question of which many people are tired, anyhow), I'd like to know this: do you guys see the front of your fingerboard (where the lines are) while playing?

I don't. For info, the fretless bass I am mostly playing is an acoustic bass guitar, which I play in sitting position. The bass body is quite thick (10 cm), and it rests on my right leg. The neck is almost horizontal, slighlty angled forward. When I look at my neck all I see is the upper side of it, where the dots are, but not at all the front of the fingerboard. I assume the thick body of the acoustic bass contributes to bringing the fingerboard forward and outside of my sight range. Also, the shape of my leg is such that the front of the bass is very slightly tilted down, which gives a more comfortable posture for my left hand (less stress on the wrist), and simultaneously pushes the front of the fingerboard further out of my sight range.

Any comments on this?

 

[Papageno]

A point I am trying to understand is posture.

Leaving aside whether lines are necessary or not for good intonation, which obviously is different for different players (a question of which many people are tired, anyhow), I'd like to know this: do you guys see the front of your fingerboard (where the lines are) while playing?

I don't. For info, the fretless bass I am mostly playing is an acoustic bass guitar, which I play in sitting position. The bass body is quite thick (10 cm), and it rests on my right leg. The neck is almost horizontal, slighlty angled forward. When I look at my neck all I see is the upper side of it, where the dots are, but not at all the front of the fingerboard. I assume the thick body of the acoustic bass contributes to bringing the fingerboard forward and outside of my sight range. Also, the shape of my leg is such that the front of the bass is very slightly tilted down, which gives a more comfortable posture for my left hand (less stress on the wrist), and simultaneously pushes the front of the fingerboard further out of my sight range.

Any comments on this?

To illustrate the point I was making in the above post and the question I'm interested in, here is a photo of how I see my neck in my usual playing posture:

Any lines on the fingerboard would be invisible for me.

When standing (which less frequent for me anyhow), the neck is more angled (30 to 45 degrees above horizontal), but the front of the fingerboard is still out my sight range (It is too clumsy make a picture in this case).

 

[jamro217]

Stock answer: it depends. Some players like a point of reference while others may like the looks of fret lines breaking up the long, solid surface of a blank board. Whatever the reason, they are popular and that is good enough to keep manufacturing them.

 

[Les Fret]

I'd like to know this: do you guys see the front of your fingerboard (where the lines are) while playing?

The answer is YES I can see the lines. It’s not that I bend forward to see them or anything strange. With normal posture you can see the lines if you want. It is the same as with a fretted bass. You can see the frets on a fretted bass while playing.

Maybe because you play an acoustic bass with thick body you can’t see them.

 

[crobasster]

Fret lines sell basses !

 

[SteveCS]

...
...
do you guys see the front of your fingerboard (where the lines are) while playing?
...

In short, the answer is no. This is my 'typical' standing perspective, from which fingerboard markers would be totally pointless:

Sitting down things are slightly different but the posture in the hand remains consistent:

 

[SteveCS]

Fret lines sell basses !

This is probably true, unfortunately. Other than Warwick and the Tony Franklin Precision (and a few low-cost brands) I don't know of a single production instrument that offers unlined fingerboards. Obviously the high-end builders like Fodera, Wal, ACG, Roscoe, etc. will do what you want, and some of the more 'catalogue-option' brands like Sandberg also offer unlined as a factory option, but new and off the peg? It's pretty slim pickings, and if the Warwick ergonomics don't work for you (or you don't want a Precision ) then it's a dire situation.

 

[Papageno]

In short, the answer is no. This is my 'typical' standing perspective, from which fingerboard markers would be totally pointless:
View attachment 4452098 View attachment 4452099 View attachment 4452100 View attachment 4452101
Sitting down things are slightly different but the posture in the hand remains consistent:
View attachment 4452102

Thanks for the thorough response. That is very informative.

I assume your bass is a solid body. What you see is similar to what I can see using my solid body fretless: the sight line almost exactly on the side of the neck. If I take my (10 cm thick) acoustic bass, the front is shifted forward, and what I can see is somehow behind the neck.

 

[jzucker]

again, take a look at jaco, willis, bona. Any issues you see with their posture?

A point I am trying to understand is posture.

Leaving aside whether lines are necessary or not for good intonation, which obviously is different for different players (a question of which many people are tired, anyhow), I'd like to know this: do you guys see the front of your fingerboard (where the lines are) while playing?

I don't. For info, the fretless bass I am mostly playing is an acoustic bass guitar, which I play in sitting position. The bass body is quite thick (10 cm), and it rests on my right leg. The neck is almost horizontal, slighlty angled forward. When I look at my neck all I see is the upper side of it, where the dots are, but not at all the front of the fingerboard. I assume the thick body of the acoustic bass contributes to bringing the fingerboard forward and outside of my sight range. Also, the shape of my leg is such that the front of the bass is very slightly tilted down, which gives a more comfortable posture for my left hand (less stress on the wrist), and simultaneously pushes the front of the fingerboard further out of my sight range.

Any comments on this?

 

[Les Fret]

again, take a look at jaco, willis, bona. Any issues you see with their posture?

Exactly. Look at the posture of Gary Willis for example. I am pretty sure he can see the fret lines.
But whatever works for you. What works for one person might not work for the other.