Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[Dr. Cheese]

This company got my 5-string money back in the day until I could get my hands on a BB 5000!
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I bought a Guild Pilot five in 1987. It was the first five I bonded with and a truly great bass. I look back, and honestly don’t have a good reason for letting it go. It was pretty light, it had a great neck and comfortable string spacing. It also got very nice Jazz Bass tone even though it did look like it was made for a Hair Metal band.

 

[bigtone23]

At which time? By the mid 80's amplification was readily available that handled low B strings at live volume.
Any kind of innovation can run up against belief systems. I used to wonder why but came to realize that it is often just easier to buy into a belief than do the legwork yourself.
I had a Guild/Hartke rig years ago, a 115/410 stack with aluminum drivers, no tweeters. Ran it with an unknown head, an Amplified Music Products BH-420. When I mentioned that rig decades later, a TB expert mocked me. He had no experience with the rig, had come up after tweeters and couldn't possibly imagine the rig sounding like anything. Especially for slap. It was ignorant as hell... and funny.

Yeah, that rig would crush today! AMPs only transitioned into SWR, the amp company of the 90s, fercrissakes. Plus, it's not necessary for an amp to be able to reproduce the fundamentals of the note to sound good. Even big ol' Ampeg 8x10" fridges can't really do the low E fundamental (they are usually down 10 or more dB by then), but since it couldn't, they sound smoother and less peaky down low. That's a win.

Just perused some Ernie Ball forum posts about string spacing and they were just as goofy as I remembered them. Big Poppa decided on narrow spacing and wrote that if you want wider spacing, go somewhere else.
I remember getting a similar response from G&L. And I happily went elsewhere.

This kept me out of the G&L and MM 5 string world, as I was accustomed to the wider spacing from Fenders. I did eventually get a US made SUB 5 and have mostly adapted to the spacing. The small part of me that hasn't adapted to the spacing accepts it as the bass was a steal and the low B does sound pretty balanced to the primary 4 strings.

My first 5 is a 1998 Fender US Dlx J V, still play it a lot today. It's actually quite nice and the low B is not floppy or unbalanced. The low E can have a little less output with certain pickup settings, but that may be just the pickup phasing at play. Maybe I got lucky. I just know that it was rather difficult to get these basses in the stores at the time, they sold out pretty fast. It took a 3 months to find a black one on the wall locally.
I also have a 2000 US Dlx P V and 2014 MIM single pickup Dlx Dimension V. These also have the inline 5 headstocks. Both of these also play great with great Bs.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't know that ANY company completely dominates the ERB market. It's easy to think Fender would be the obvious choice, but for a very long time I thought it was Tobias dominating at least the high end market.

 

[audreycashin]

Heartfield Guitars - DR-4/5/6(C)
This burned them also. And the unicorn HM5

 

[nixdad]

Heartfield Guitars - DR-4/5/6(C)
This burned them also. And the unicorn HM5

Yep - Heartfield sold fairly well back in the day also (Fender owned them for a time as well.) They also featured a semi-parametric EQ, somewhat similar to Wal & Alembic but simplified.

 

[will o the wasp]

Like making a fretless Jazz Bass, Fender didn't even come to the modern 5-string market until late. Peavey and Music Man had good 5-string basses at prices affordable to many working bassists a long time before FMIC did. And the early Fender low-B basses weren't very good.

 

[will o the wasp]

The 70's fretless P bass dots were not in the same positions as were the fretted ones that made it awkward to play. to me Fender just quickly jumped on the "bandwagon" in too much of a hurry to compete with the latests musical innovations. Like the 80's P special adding an extra volume pot and switch to make there P active to compete with the Music man. The Jazz was really designed for jazz and ended up in the rock genre mostly. And a bass version of the Tele to name but a few marketing trials. My opinion only..

 

[Salicete]

Yep - Heartfield sold fairly well back in the day also (Fender owned them for a time as well.) They also featured a semi-parametric EQ, somewhat similar to Wal & Alembic but simplified.

I had a guy at Chuck Levin's in Wheaton, MD try to sell me HARD on a Heartfield many years ago when I bought my first 5-string.

I had always played Fenders, but it only took seconds to rule out a Fender 5-er when I tried it out; it just felt "wrong." The guy trotted out what was a very nice looking Heartfiled, but which model I don't recall.

It felt OK, and sounded nice, but then he handed me a PRS, and after about 5 minutes of road testing, it was game over; I bought it on the spot.

In retrospect, I think that somewhere in my mind, I had just expected a 5-string Fender to feel like the four stringers I had played for years, a stupid expectation, but I think that was it.

 

[nixdad]

I had a guy at Chuck Levin's in Wheaton, MD try to sell me HARD on a Heartfield many years ago when I bought my first 5-string.

I had always played Fenders, but it only took seconds to rule out a Fender 5-er when I tried it out; it just felt "wrong." The guy trotted out what was a very nice looking Heartfiled, but which model I don't recall.

It felt OK, and sounded nice, but then he handed me a PRS, and after about 5 minutes of road testing, it was game over; I bought it on the spot.

In retrospect, I think that somewhere in my mind, I had just expected a 5-string Fender to feel like the four stringers I had played for years, a stupid expectation, but I think that was it.

Wow! Big difference between a Heartfield and a PRS.
If I recall correctly, the Heartfield would have been $500-$600, and a PRS would have been 4-5 times that amount. Different instrument, but that's a heck of an upsell! PRS 5's back then must have been fairly rare.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't know that ANY company completely dominates the ERB market. It's easy to think Fender would be the obvious choice, but for a very long time I thought it was Tobias dominating at least the high end market.

I think Tobias did up until the sale.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yep - Heartfield sold fairly well back in the day also (Fender owned them for a time as well.) They also featured a semi-parametric EQ, somewhat similar to Wal & Alembic but simplified.

Rarely saw Heartfields outside of stores.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah, that rig would crush today! AMPs only transitioned into SWR, the amp company of the 90s, fercrissakes. Plus, it's not necessary for an amp to be able to reproduce the fundamentals of the note to sound good. Even big ol' Ampeg 8x10" fridges can't really do the low E fundamental (they are usually down 10 or more dB by then), but since it couldn't, they sound smoother and less peaky down low. That's a win.

Actually AMP and SWR were out at the same time. I made the mistake of choosing the original SM400 over the AMP due to hype. Regretted it immediately. A few years later I bought a used BH-420 and gigged with it for 15 years. Still have two.

 

[audreycashin]

Rarely saw Heartfields outside of stores.

here you go

 

[audreycashin]

here you go
View attachment 3696687

Called the poor man's Wal

 

[zontar]

 

[Brad Johnson]

here you go
View attachment 3696687

Definitely looks like a trend.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Called the poor man's Wal

Just curious... why? Never heard anything Wal-like when I've played them.

 

[Salicete]

Wow! Big difference between a Heartfield and a PRS.
If I recall correctly, the Heartfield would have been $500-$600, and a PRS would have been 4-5 times that amount. Different instrument, but that's a heck of an upsell! PRS 5's back then must have been fairly rare.

As I recall the Heartfield as in the $800 range, and I paid $1575 for the PRS, a lot of money back then. Though I'm not sure, I think it was from PRS' first foray into bass. I'll have to dig out a pic, anyway, I had not ever heard of PRS until then, but man did it feel good in my hands.

That bass is still in MD, though (big mistake) I sold it to buy some geegaw for my first wife. I saw it on eBay a year or so ago for $7800. I know it was mine, because the serial number was visible in the ad.

It was a beauty, all white, including the head stock and neck, with a rosewood board. I'd have bought it back if I had the money.

Back on topic, I'm an admitted Fender Fan Boy, but just never latched onto their 5-strings.

 

[R Briere]

here you go
View attachment 3696687

Gee..... Heartfield looks a lot like another Popular Japanese Bass Manufacturer's Basses. FMIC had an "Expectations Problem" during the late 80's which continued for quite a few years. When I first joined Fender as a Rep for the Northeast I was delighted to discover that I inherited Kubicki as well. I put quite a few of them into stores only to find out that FMIC expected the numbers across the country to be higher.....MUCH Higher. ZAPP!! Game over. I watched that same mindset with other products which FMIC owned as well.

When 5 Strings were becoming somewhat popular, there were several issues at play that we overlook today. Nobody knew much about a NEW game in town called "The Internet". Who remembers a HUGE Chainstore called "Mars"? Most M.I. stores were "Mom & Pops" ....... and they had to keep several reps happy so they were reluctant to spread their resources too far....PLUS they had every Color you wanted.....as long as you wanted BLACK.

I know that most of you own Kramer instruments, right? No? Not Kramer from Seinfeld....Kramer from Kramer! B.C. Rich went from making ONLY very VERY High End Basses to .... well....making other stuff.

Fender watched the Bass Market very closely and, IMHO, missed the boat in large part for reasons implied above. Build what sells in large numbers..... take very few chances. Sunn Bass Amps were killer. Out of 20 "Territories", I was the only Rep to have a Sunn Dealer network. ZAPP! Gone.

The Roscoe Beck was/is a Killer Bass. I owned three....although I continued to gig with my Tobias 5 strings. I had worked as Mike's Rep before going to Fender.

The M.I. Industry is much like the Used Car business......and the more you know about it the less likely you are to take part in the Fads which keep it alive. Five Strings are certainly here to stay....... Now, Foot Pedals? IMHO...Bass Players should know better.

 

[chadds]

My small sample of players, me, says the rigidity of a Fender four is perfect. The booteeqees felt great as 5s where there was no difference between the tensions of the 5 strings.
So I say feel.
You can’t just throw an additional string on keep the scale the same and expect the same results.
YMMV and often does.