Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[Jim Carr]

...Maybe they took the easy way out and compromised by converting their most popular models into fivers... ...For players who want a five string that was designed from the ground up to perform that function there may be better choices.

I think perhaps Fender wanted their 90's 5-string Jazz to be as similar as possible to their 4-strings—hoping that familiarity would sell. Now days, I think their 5-strings are fine, and wanted one until the red metro came along as a b-day gift.

It is interesting to consider the refinements Sadowsky made to the basic Jazz design: Smaller/lighter body, different neck architecture, heavier bridge, hum canceling pickups, boost only 2-band onboard EQ, custom top shelf tone woods, great fit, etc. What am I missing? Oh! Higher price, LOL!

 

[Ooba Tooba]

Nice analysis. I want to play a Roscoe Beck 5 some day. I'm playing a Reverend Mercalli mostly, which seems pretty close (to the RB5) in concept.

I had 2 jazz plus V’s in the 90s. Eventually the pickups got on my nerves. Bought a RB V and although I loved the pickups, the neck was just way too wide for me. I currently play an American Standard V and am hoping to get an Elite V shortly

 

[Jim Carr]

Why is the in-line 5 headstock supposedly to blame for a floppy B?
There is only perhaps a 1/4” difference between the distance from the nut to the B string post between the in-line and 4+1.
In any case, I have read here on TB that anything outside the nut and bridge saddle doesn’t matter anyway...
I have an in-line 5 Warmoth neck, and the B is tremendous.

I don't think the head stock is being blamed. It's just that those instruments were less successful, for several reasons, such as string spacing, b-string/dead spots, preamp, bridge issues (perhaps), lack of interest, etc.

 

[bassface73]

Chi Cheng of Deftones used P-basses and a Roscoe Beck.
Current Deftones bassist Sergio Vega uses the Fender Jaguar bass and standard passive Jazz basses...

Thank you for pointing this out. I was just about to post the same thing. It has nothing to do with a genre of music, imo.

 

[rogerbmiller]

Interesting topic.

I think Fender's place in the market is firmly secured in the retro/nostalgia segment. Along with Gibson, they are the MI equivalent of Harley Davidson. You are buying into an old, tried and true design and brand heritage. As a matter of course this lends itself to four strings and it says a lot that people pay a premium for the "pre-worn" models like the RW and Custom Shop series.

That said, I think Fender actually makes very good 5 strings. I have owned several DLX JVs (still have a few) and a couple of Jazz Plus Vs from the 90s when Fender was actually innovating and making design-forward instruments. They are all pretty good. They definitely don't perform like high end 5s you would find from boutique makers but they are perfectly playable basses that sound good and look good. If I had one complaint, the early 5 in line head stocks were prone to cracking by the tuning post for the low B string upon impact so this is something to look for when vetting a pre 2002 5 in line Fender for example the DLX JV basses with the Suhr pickups. They fixed the problem in the later models but this is something to look out for when you are looking at older 5 in line head stocks.

I had high hopes for the short-lived Dimension which has a thunderous low B string. Alas, Fender fans were not accepting of a MM style bass with Fender on the logo ergo my point in the first paragraph above. Oh well...

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

My '97 Fender Jazz Deluxe 5 plays like a dream! It has a Sadowsky preamp that I leave turned off as I'm feeding it through a Noble dual-tube preamp. I've owned lots of bass guitars and this one is the best player I've had. The neck and string spacing are perfect for me, and I have small hands.

This model came with the single die pole pickups -- a John Suhr special. I replaced those with Lindy Fralins. I think the Suhr pickups would have been fine in the long run.

 

[Eminor3rd]

=p

 

[dwade]

When the early 5's hit the market, no one really gave a damn. It wasn't really that long after the electric 4 was invented. No one played a 5 string upright. Player's didn't really see the need. At the time, it almost felt sort of gimmicky. It's my opinion that Fender did what big business does. Stopped believing in a product that didn't sell and sort of abandoned it.

The first extended range bass player that I can recall is Anthony Jackson, with his 6 string. He seemed to be mostly alone in his admiration for the extended range. I started seeing 5's with a bit more regularity in the very late '80's. It seems to me the boutique builders began to the explore the 5 with an increased emphasis of solving the issues player's were complaining about. I always remember hearing things like 'there isn't a 5 that sounds nearly as good as a 4'. I haven't heard anyone say that for a very long time. My perspective is that the independent builders took the time to sort through the complaints and address them, one by one, in one-off builds for individuals motivated to see an acceptable extended range instrument become a reality. Once that began to happen, there was no looking back.

But let's face it. Folks can be slow to adapt & accept change.
I have a few 5's. I have single 6. But I still prefer to stick with a 4, using a Hipshot to extend my a range a step. But that's just me. The beautiful thing is there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to personal prefernce.

 

[bassclef04]

I totally agree! I'm realizing this now.

Stingray 5, tight spacing. Lakland 55-94 sounds nothing like a Jazz.

As someone who is usually underwhelmed by attempts at Jazzes I realized it came down to a simple problem... not cutting through in the mix like a Fender.

Aggressive sounding basses are like magnifying glasses. They make everything bigger... the good and the bad. So if you're looking for something that won't get you in trouble, many of the more refined, cleaner sounding basses are likely a better fit. Me, I prefer my bass to have the ability to bust through a wall like the Koolaid man if I want to. The pretty sounding Fender clones don't do that. They do have an advantage when you play alone.

 

[2F/2F]

I do not believe Fender is producing these basses year after year and no one is buying them. I have had several myself and only ever had one with a bad B string.

I didn't say "no one is buying them." I said there isn't much of a market for them, which I meant in the relative sense, and in relation to the original question. For every five string on the wall in your average Guitar Center, there are probably 20 or 30 four strings – maybe even more. So when speaking of "captur[ing] the 5 string market," you're talking about something much more niche than capturing the regular bass market.

People play them...but they are not exactly common. And I am someone who grew up playing bass in the '80s and '90s, when they were at their peak popularity. Even then, when they were more common, they were still viewed as "something different."

 

[2F/2F]

double post

 

[Jim Carr]

When the early 5's hit the market, no one really gave a damn. It wasn't really that long after the electric 4 was invented. No one played a 5 string upright. Player's didn't really see the need...

Actually, 5-string double basses are common, and have been for over 100 years. The bass viols (contrabass violone) sometimes were built with 6 strings, though other courses, even 3 (three) string basses, exist.

The Classical (not to mention Romantic) repertoire frequently calls for low C, even in works by Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. Most orchestral players who don't use a 5-string, have the "Low C Extension." Why? To double the cello all the way down to its lowest pitch.

It's all about that bass, LOL.

 

[4001]

I don't think Fender 5-string basses sound all that great.
My ideal tone for a 5-string is Jimmy Johnson's Alembic.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I would probably be highly likely to buy a fender 5-string if they would bring back a similar model to the Roscoe Beck with the dual coil pickups and perhaps consider a different headstock configuration, a 3-piece or more multi laminate neck and a 34 and 1/2 to 35 inch scale length.

 

[mking]

I have a '99 Fender Jazz 5. I was always underwhelmed by the B string. I tried 135s and then 140 slinkys that helped a lot, but the B was still weaker than my other 5vers, whether they were 34" or 35." I put Nordy pickups and pre in it. Finally, I strung it E-C and now it is my most played bass. I just gave up on the B and added the C and it is great.

 

[nixdad]

I would probably be highly likely to buy a fender 5-string if they would bring back a similar model to the Roscoe Beck with the dual coil pickups and perhaps consider a different headstock configuration, a 3-piece or more multi laminate neck and a 34 and 1/2 to 35 inch scale length.

Back in the day, Jimmy would come in with his Alembic 5-string(s.) The interesting thing is his Basses had guitar-like string spacing, and he plays with his fingers!
Is he still playing the same Alembics that he did decades ago?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I have a '99 Fender Jazz 5. I was always underwhelmed by the B string. I tried 135s and then 140 slinkys that helped a lot, but the B was still weaker than my other 5vers, whether they were 34" or 35." I put Nordy pickups and pre in it. Finally, I strung it E-C and now it is my most played bass. I just gave up on the B and added the C and it is great.

Probably a .125 B, maybe with an exposed core, would have given you better results than those thick B strings.

 

[Pings Bass]

I assume this has already been said, but just in case: Fender failed to capture any market since Leo left. Their only significant market share is the nostalgia market. Nothing modern they've created has stuck.

 

[red_rhino]

In the words of bass guru Ed Cannacci (Gelb Music, Redwood City, CA), "The B strings on Fender 5-strings from the late 90's to 2001 or so, just didn't work."

Let me just say that I miss Ed. I really enjoyed working with him over the years at Gelb. Should he ever open a store on his own, I would totally support it. There were some things we diverged on in our likes and dislikes of gear, but even knowing that was helpful to me.

However, on that quote, he was spot on. I had a 2000-ish beautiful J-5 deluxe for a short time, but the B was sub par, and quality of notes really varied up and down the neck. So much potential, but not quite there.

why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass?

Product development decisions at larger corporations are driven by marketing groups based upon what they think they can sell. Given the initial poor first outing on their 5, they may have concluded that nobody was interested and abandoned further product development efforts. Eventually others came along and established the product and the market. Fender's 5-strings are generally okay these days, but they are not setting the standard for a great 5-string product; they're just doing what they know how to do.

 

[Brad Johnson]

True, but I also wonder if the state of amplification at the time may have had something to do with it, too, at least way back in the day.

At which time? By the mid 80's amplification was readily available that handled low B strings at live volume.

Any kind of innovation can run up against belief systems. I used to wonder why but came to realize that it is often just easier to buy into a belief than do the legwork yourself.

I had a Guild/Hartke rig years ago, a 115/410 stack with aluminum drivers, no tweeters. Ran it with an unknown head, an Amplified Music Products BH-420. When I mentioned that rig decades later, a TB expert mocked me. He had no experience with the rig, had come up after tweeters and couldn't possibly imagine the rig sounding like anything. Especially for slap. It was ignorant as hell... and funny.

Early on it was decided that the only way that a B had a chance of sounding good was by having at least 35" scale. People bought into it and still espouse it. Fortunately for me I had Mike Tobias build a 34" scale five that completely blew that idea out of the water. I've heard different B's since, I've yet to hear better. My main gigging basses are still less than 35". Simply not necessary.