Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[Brad Johnson]

What I don’t understand is why did fender think to do a high c string BEFORE they thought of doing a low b?

I mean really?

Consider the time in which it happened. Prior to synths. A bridge between tic tac and regular bass.

 

[Koshchei]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

Short answer: Corporate inertia.
Long answer: Big and successful companies have a hard time deviating from the course that got them successful in the first place. They become risk adverse and switch their mindset from innovation to "crab bucket". This ends up costing them big in the long run, when small companies eat their breakfast.
Examples: Blackberry, Gibson, Harley Davidson.

 

[Brad Johnson]

clearly, Sharay is playing out of the back pickup mostly. doesn't matter how low
the action is.

I don't hear that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Why is the in-line 5 headstock supposedly to blame for a floppy B?
There is only perhaps a 1/4” difference between the distance from the nut to the B string post between the in-line and 4+1.
In any case, I have read here on TB that anything outside the nut and bridge saddle doesn’t matter anyway...
I have an in-line 5 Warmoth neck, and the B is tremendous.

When you have to blame something, it's as good a scapegoat as any.

 

[LBS-bass]

A lot of folks say the spacing of the bridge is too wide for the neck.

Wasn't there some talk that they maybe put the wrong bridges on them for a spell and that the G strings were perilously close to the edge of the fretboard? I think maybe that problem got fixed but wasn't interested enough to follow up and get more details on that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Because most 5 string players don't like the voicing of the Fender pre-amp. That is why people try to continually swap the pre-amp. (John East, Sadowsky, etc. etc. etc)

Then, when the try the other manufactures, they find a "better neck profile" and a better feel.

As far as 4 string passive Jazz and Precision? You will hardly find one better.

Bassists are exceedingly susceptible to "next great thing" syndrome. If it's new it must be "better". I've fallen for it, typically with less than desirable results. I've owned Suhr era JD5 basses and swapped out the preamps, only to realize that it wasn't broke and didn't require fixing. So I reinstalled the originals. As a result I don't fall for the grass is greener anymore. It really has far less to do with what's already in there and more to do with what might happen. Mods happen... doesn't make them right.


Most boutique Fender style basses don't hold a candle to Fenders... they "improve" the personality right out of them.

I saw the usefulness of a string lower than an E long before I heard another bassist use one.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Great post!

I’m with you with supporting the smaller shop and boutique builders for sure!
Less overhead = more value to the customer, could be the big reasons 5 strings were more successful outside of Fender’s walls.

Considering the thousands of Fender fives out there, I'd take Fender's success any day.

There seem to be a lot of bubbles out there too.

 

[bassliner50]

So who did capture the 5 string market if anyone? Maybe G&L L2500?

 

[skyline_01]

Google Image Result for https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/232561057306_/Fender-American-Deluxe-Precision-Bass-V-5-string-Guitar.jpg
Been looking for this forever, why did they stop making this one?

That's a question I've been asking for years. Best 5-string Fender ever made IMO (neck-and-neck with the Roscoe Beck V). You still see a handful of 4-strings in the wild for sale but the 5-strings are unicorn status now.

 

[nixdad]

To be fair to Fender the 5 string market started so small that they were hardly going to notice it, let alone get into it in a big way. Their focus was to carry on dominating in the 4 string market.

I agree with your 2nd point concerning the 4 string market, but do not agree with the first point in regards to 5 strings.
Beginning in the mid 80's when the focus was competing with the extended range of keyboards, 5-string basses were incredibly popular and being sold in droves, at least in major markets. Boutique builders recognized this, and this is the era when many of them stepped up to carve out their own corner of the business and really gain a foothold. Yamaha had launched the BB 5000 in '84, but they missed the mark as the string spacing was way too narrow. The execs at Ernie Ball recognized the potential market early on as well, and created the StingRay 5 which they nailed for the affordable bass market when it was launched in '87. There were may years when we sold more 5-string basses than 4 strings.
Like many larger companies that hold a strong position in the market, I believe Fender was just being conservative. However, had they taken the market seriously (which they did not seem to do until the 2,000's) they could have owned the "general" 5-string market when it was hot by creating a well designed 5-string J-Bass. The Roscoe Beck 5 was a solid entry, but it was also a nontraditional Fender design and at a higher price point.

There isn't much five string market to begin with, IME – Fender or not.

I don't believe this is accurate. I'm certain the market is not as strong as it was compared to the 80's & 90's, but there are still a lot of 5-string basses being sold today.

I’m with you with supporting the smaller shop and boutique builders for sure!
Less overhead = more value to the customer, could be the big reasons 5 strings were more successful outside of Fender’s walls.

This definitely contributed!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Stingray 5, tight spacing. Lakland 55-94 sounds nothing like a Jazz.

As someone who is usually underwhelmed by attempts at Jazzes I realized it came down to a simple problem... not cutting through in the mix like a Fender.

Aggressive sounding basses are like magnifying glasses. They make everything bigger... the good and the bad. So if you're looking for something that won't get you in trouble, many of the more refined, cleaner sounding basses are likely a better fit. Me, I prefer my bass to have the ability to bust through a wall like the Koolaid man if I want to. The pretty sounding Fender clones don't do that. They do have an advantage when you play alone.

 

[bearfoot]

Why did the Fender company fail to capture the 5-string market?

Because by the time 5-strings were getting in demand, they had lost their key innovator and engineer.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So who did capture the 5 string market if anyone? Maybe G&L L2500?

Seriously? A G&L? Five?


It's a good question. Fender has a huge share of the five string market, followed by Fender copies. Ibanez makes a bunch of basses but they're not known for their distinctive personality.

Boutiques don't have a big share. So... who do people think fit the bill?

 

[nixdad]

So who did capture the 5 string market if anyone? Maybe G&L L2500?

It was not G&L, as their string spacing was too narrow when it was first introduced.

Who captured the market when it was hot? Per my recollection:
Boutique - Tobias, Ken Smith, Fodera, Pedulla, F-Bass, Warwick, Wal, etc. Sadowsky and others later on.
Standard - MusicMan, Ibanez, Peavey (TL's), Yamaha (TRB's for us,) & the Hamer Cruise Bass 5.
I'm certain there were more, but these are the brands that come to mind.

My experience with the market was from '80-'97, so I have no doubts there are others who can comment on what's been real since then.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I agree with your 2nd point concerning the 4 string market, but do not agree with the first point in regards to 5 strings.
Beginning in the mid 80's when the focus was competing with the extended range of keyboards, 5-string basses were incredibly popular and being sold in droves, at least in major markets. Boutique builders recognized this, and this is the era when many of them stepped up to carve out their own corner of the business and really gain a foothold. Yamaha had launched the BB 5000 in '84, but they missed the mark as the string spacing was way too narrow. The execs at Ernie Ball recognized the potential market early on as well, and created the StingRay 5 which they nailed for the affordable bass market when it was launched in '87. There were may years when we sold more 5-string basses than 4 strings.
Like many larger companies that hold a strong position in the market, I believe Fender was just being conservative. However, had they taken the market seriously (which they did not seem to do until the 2,000's) they could have owned the "general" 5-string market when it was hot by creating a well designed 5-string J-Bass. The Roscoe Beck 5 was a solid entry, but it was also a nontraditional Fender design and at a higher price point.


I don't believe this is accurate. I'm certain the market is not as strong as it was compared to the 80's & 90's, but there are still a lot of 5-string basses being sold today.


This definitely contributed!

Nixdad, I am glad you post because it is good to her from someone who sold gear. I think many who post here make assumptions about the market based the style of music they play or crew of musicians they know. The five is less popular with some styles, but it is very popular in other styles. Fender sells a lot of fives. Just check out Gospel videos. More than a few Fender fives are being played.

 

[bassballs27]

Considering the thousands of Fender fives out there, I'd take Fender's success any day.

There seem to be a lot of bubbles out there too.

Yeah, supply and demand is the battle for small builders. But in terms of instruments, I don’t believe success is measured by volume. Walmart or Amazon can keep that business model

 

[skyline_01]

I don't know much about other 5-string basses, but I've played my 1992 5-string Jazz Plus since 1994. I love it still. I don't know if the B string is floppy compared to other 5ers, but it plays like butter to me. The sound from the active lace sensor pickups suits me to a T. I've played classic rock, modern and classic country, Carolina beach music, R&B, funk, and recently added modern praise & worship on this bass, and it has worked well in any genre.

I had a Jazz Plus V that I bought new back in the day and played for about 5 years. Over time I figured out that I did not care for the sound of the pre/pickups (always sounded weak and a bit noisy to me) but I remember it having a pretty good B string, even with the 5 inline tuners. To each his own - I'm glad that you have been able to enjoy yours for all these years!

George Hughen from the band Black Oak Arkansas still plays a sunburst Jazz Plus V. I met him when he sat in on a gig of mine back around 2010/2011 when I lived in NW Arkansas. He's a great player and a hoot to shoot the breeze with!

 

[bassballs27]

Stingray 5, tight spacing. Lakland 55-94 sounds nothing like a Jazz.

As someone who is usually underwhelmed by attempts at Jazzes I realized it came down to a simple problem... not cutting through in the mix like a Fender.

Aggressive sounding basses are like magnifying glasses. They make everything bigger... the good and the bad. So if you're looking for something that won't get you in trouble, many of the more refined, cleaner sounding basses are likely a better fit. Me, I prefer my bass to have the ability to bust through a wall like the Koolaid man if I want to. The pretty sounding Fender clones don't do that. They do have an advantage when you play alone.

Yes, mids, mids, mids!!!
I can hear the Kookaid man say “Oh yeah” from the commercials years ago! Lol!

 

[gzarruk]

Haven't read the whole thread, but there's a lot of interesting points there. I think that Fender's target audience plays a massive role here, they're just happy with the classic designs and don't really want or need something more (for the most part, of course).

They company is also to blame, as they just don't put much effort in changing stuff to innovate and utilize more modern approaches to their bass (or even guitar) line. Just look at the Steve Bailey 6 string JB. IIRC, Steve said it took them YEARS to develop a 6er that was actually playable. It's like they tried to reinvent the wheel when there's already a few well made jazz style 6ers out there they could use as inspiration or starting point. If I'm not mistaken, the bass was well received and Fender was getting praise for finally stepping up and offering a 6 string, but then Steve went to Warwick, that model got discontinued and they never tried making another one. Ever.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah, supply and demand is the battle for small builders. But in terms of instruments, I don’t believe success is measured by volume. Walmart or Amazon can keep that business model

So how is it measured? Seriously?

Supply and demand is the battle for any builder.

Assuming that you understand that Fender's market share covers a wide range of products...