Why did origin effects stop making big box compressors?

[bass player 53]

As a freaky aside, I was talking to my brother about his son's new college dorm.
Talking, not using Safari. Right after the call, I posted what I posted, and this ad appeared.
If you don't think your mobile phone is listening in on you, think again!

 

[gillento]

.....


They even still put the big box Cali76 in the marketing copy and photos, so they know the big box is still extremely desirable and as if they're trying to say "This small one is good enough I swear" (photo sourced from Origin's website).

View attachment 7534884

I have used a LOT of "small box" or "regular box" compressors over the last 20+ years (EBS, Demeter, Diamond, Maxon, RMI/Lehle, ....)
When the RMI/Lehle stuff was discontinued, Jacques, the designer of the RMI stuff recommend I'd go for the Cali76 CB (Compact Bass) and he was right! I loved/still love "that" sound.
Then when the new "smaller" 76 was released about a year ago, I went for it because of the improved metering, smaller box, "better" operation at 9V. But soon I discovered the newer version sounded "bland" or boring to my ears, it missed the sparkle of the CB.
Now people say the newer version sounds closer to the big box version. I never played a big box OE, but I prefer the CB. Of all the "regular" sized comps, it sounds best to my ears (although not sounding like a big box comp).

 

[Challanger2]

I have used a LOT of "small box" or "regular box" compressors over the last 20+ years (EBS, Demeter, Diamond, Maxon, RMI/Lehle, ....)
When the RMI/Lehle stuff was discontinued, Jacques, the designer of the RMI stuff recommend I'd go for the Cali76 CB (Compact Bass) and he was right! I loved/still love "that" sound.
Then when the new "smaller" 76 was released about a year ago, I went for it because of the improved metering, smaller box, "better" operation at 9V. But soon I discovered the newer version sounded "bland" or boring to my ears, it missed the sparkle of the CB.
Now people say the newer version sounds closer to the big box version. I never played a big box OE, but I prefer the CB. Of all the "regular" sized comps, it sounds best to my ears (although not sounding like a big box comp).

Do you mean the original small one with just one glowing light for gain reduction over the accurate metering of the newer ones?

 

[wolffire99]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is "What is the differentiating factor of their small box compressors given the discontinuation of the big box and the component downgrade?".

For example, take the Origin Halcyon Green OD pedal I have for guitar. It costs a fair bit more than most TS9/TS808 type pedals, but you get a lot for that money. It has an added dry/wet control, standard/mod switchable modes, and the adaptive drive circuitry with multiple settings to make the pedal work better when rolling down the guitar volume knob. Overall its an excellent product and I'd highly recommend it.

Or take their big box analog amp simulation pedals for bass. Excellent analog simulations of classic bass amps with realistic controls and a great DI with optional cab sim. I don't have one myself, but based on what I've seen from reviews it also seems to be a pretty top tier product. Again costs more than some of the other more popular pedals out there fulfilling a similar role, such as a Sansamp, but you get a lot of value for the price.

Now take the small box compressor. We don't get the premium components that were used in the original. We get downgraded from the big box that maintained or was extremely close to the topology of the 1176 to "1176®-inspired circuitry" for the small box (direct quote from their website). Every review I've read where the reviewer had both a big box and a small box said that the big box notably sounded better, so it seems there is a reduction in sonic quality across the board. I just don't see what the elevator pitch for why anyone would by one of these over many of the other bass compressors on the market like the MXR M87 or Empress compressor for 1/2 to 2/3 the price. The only things that seems to be an improvement of the small box is the form factor, weight, and being able to mount it on a pedalboard more easily.


They even still put the big box Cali76 in the marketing copy and photos, so they know the big box is still extremely desirable and as if they're trying to say "This small one is good enough I swear" (photo sourced from Origin's website).

View attachment 7534884

Wait, you've never even owned one?

 

[Challanger2]

Wait, you've never even owned one?

I've owned one of the original Cali76 big boxes, what I haven't owned are the new bass amp simulation pedals like the super vintage.

 

[sunbeast]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is "What is the differentiating factor of their small box compressors given the discontinuation of the big box and the component downgrade?".

For example, take the Origin Halcyon Green OD pedal I have for guitar. It costs a fair bit more than most TS9/TS808 type pedals, but you get a lot for that money. It has an added dry/wet control, standard/mod switchable modes, and the adaptive drive circuitry with multiple settings to make the pedal work better when rolling down the guitar volume knob. Overall its an excellent product and I'd highly recommend it.

Or take their big box analog amp simulation pedals for bass. Excellent analog simulations of classic bass amps with realistic controls and a great DI with optional cab sim. I don't have one myself, but based on what I've seen from reviews it also seems to be a pretty top tier product. Again costs more than some of the other more popular pedals out there fulfilling a similar role, such as a Sansamp, but you get a lot of value for the price.

Now take the small box compressor. We don't get the premium components that were used in the original. We get downgraded from the big box that maintained or was extremely close to the topology of the 1176 to "1176®-inspired circuitry" for the small box (direct quote from their website). Every review I've read where the reviewer had both a big box and a small box said that the big box notably sounded better, so it seems there is a reduction in sonic quality across the board. I just don't see what the elevator pitch for why anyone would by one of these over many of the other bass compressors on the market like the MXR M87 or Empress compressor for 1/2 to 2/3 the price. The only things that seems to be an improvement of the small box is the form factor, weight, and being able to mount it on a pedalboard more easily.


They even still put the big box Cali76 in the marketing copy and photos, so they know the big box is still extremely desirable and as if they're trying to say "This small one is good enough I swear" (photo sourced from Origin's website).

View attachment 7534884

"Component downgrade" IMO is also a stretch- the main difference in components is just the move from through-hole parts to SMD, something most electronics have done. There isn't mojo in through-hole components, but they are pricier and more difficult to source reliable parts as fewer people use them for anything- and certain specialized components like specific FETs that they designed the big-box around might no longer be made in that form or at all anymore. The original big-box Cali76 didn't have a transformer, but if that is the "feature" you miss from the pricier big-box versions then I can't argue with that difference in the compact versions.

The big-box Cali76 comps were hardly a perfect 1176 representation either, they were a take on "1176-style" compression in a pedal form back when there were far fewer FET-based pedal compressors to choose from but noticeably different to most folks who have compared to an original 1176 (and much different than comparing a Urei 1176 to a modern rackmount 1176 clone)- different attack envelopes (including different available control range, different feel), different tonal signatures, etc. Part of the Cali76 is mythology attached to the 1176 name quite honestly (mostly for people who haven't used an actual 1176 regularly- few people would choose a Cali76 in a studio over an actual 1176 apart from wanting the specifically different character of the Cali), but the Origin comps have a particular midrange harmonic character and tightness that have become their own Cali-76 "signature" character not really consistent with an actual 1176. Part of this harmonic character is what the compact Origin compressors have most in common with the big-box versions.

Nothing else sounds like a Cali76 comp (even an actual 1176), big or small box, so that is the draw of their compressors. That is honestly the best stand-out feature they could have to offer! But the small-box versions offer features not found on the big ones too (clean blend, sidechain HPF). Not sure what more they could offer to "stand out" without requiring a massive box that is a deal-killer for many players. I no longer have an Origin comp, but appreciated the Cali76-CB for what it was and certainly would say it stuck out just fine in the world of compressors.

A big part of the price premium is simply that these are all made in the UK- thats not a cheap place to exist, let alone manufacture things! But also a pretty box and the implication of "quality"

 

[gillento]

Do you mean the original small one with just one glowing light for gain reduction over the accurate metering of the newer ones?

Yes, exactly. It is labeled "Cali76 Compact Bass" wheras the latest one is the "Cali76 Bass Compressor".

 

[TheArchitect]

I'm potentially in the market for an analog compressor pedal, so I was taking a look at the origin effects offerings. And it seems they no longer offer their original compressors, and now just offer these mini variants. They're still charging extremely high prices (which potentially are justified, I don't mind paying for quality) but no longer offer any of the differentiating features from before like high quality output transformers, getting as close to an original 1176 in pedal format as possible, high/low gain switches for transformer drive, etc.

What's the angle for why anyone would buy an origin compressor over something generic like an MXR bass compressor? Before they had these very clear differentiating factors and offered something unique, but now it just seems like a generic compressor that's very well built.

No one wants giant pedals anymore. I certainly don't. I don't need an 1176 to play live and I already have one to record with.

 

[TheArchitect]

I mean isn't it right there? "We couldn't source premium materials, so we introduced a model that doesn't use any"?

Note I'm not trying to hate on origin, I have their halcyon green OD for guitar and it's absolutely exceptional. I'm very aware of the high quality of product they're known for. To me it just seems like their compressor is not up to par with their other offerings in light of these changes.

No. It means those particular premium materials are no longer available.

 

[triviani]

Wouldn't it be possible for Origin to release small batches? They did that for a while. That would keep people happy and prices more reasonable.

I've owned the TX big-box a couple of times, and it was a real work of art. A fantastic compressor. I sold it because it isn't very practical for a pedalboard, and they were an easy sale when I needed money for other gear. I wouldn't mind having one again; even at current prices, I don't think there's anything that comes close to these.

 

[wolffire99]

"Component downgrade" IMO is also a stretch- the main difference in components is just the move from through-hole parts to SMD, something most electronics have done. There isn't mojo in through-hole components, but they are pricier and more difficult to source reliable parts as fewer people use them for anything- and certain specialized components like specific FETs that they designed the big-box around might no longer be made in that form or at all anymore. The original big-box Cali76 didn't have a transformer, but if that is the "feature" you miss from the pricier big-box versions then I can't argue with that difference in the compact versions.

The big-box Cali76 comps were hardly a perfect 1176 representation either, they were a take on "1176-style" compression in a pedal form back when there were far fewer FET-based pedal compressors to choose from but noticeably different to most folks who have compared to an original 1176 (and much different than comparing a Urei 1176 to a modern rackmount 1176 clone)- different attack envelopes (including different available control range, different feel), different tonal signatures, etc. Part of the Cali76 is mythology attached to the 1176 name quite honestly (mostly for people who haven't used an actual 1176 regularly- few people would choose a Cali76 in a studio over an actual 1176 apart from wanting the specifically different character of the Cali), but the Origin comps have a particular midrange harmonic character and tightness that have become their own Cali-76 "signature" character not really consistent with an actual 1176. Part of this harmonic character is what the compact Origin compressors have most in common with the big-box versions.

Nothing else sounds like a Cali76 comp (even an actual 1176), big or small box, so that is the draw of their compressors. That is honestly the best stand-out feature they could have to offer! But the small-box versions offer features not found on the big ones too (clean blend, sidechain HPF). Not sure what more they could offer to "stand out" without requiring a massive box that is a deal-killer for many players. I no longer have an Origin comp, but appreciated the Cali76-CB for what it was and certainly would say it stuck out just fine in the world of compressors.

A big part of the price premium is simply that these are all made in the UK- thats not a cheap place to exist, let alone manufacture things! But also a pretty box and the implication of "quality"

Great write up

 

[Challanger2]

"Component downgrade" IMO is also a stretch- the main difference in components is just the move from through-hole parts to SMD, something most electronics have done. There isn't mojo in through-hole components, but they are pricier and more difficult to source reliable parts as fewer people use them for anything- and certain specialized components like specific FETs that they designed the big-box around might no longer be made in that form or at all anymore. The original big-box Cali76 didn't have a transformer, but if that is the "feature" you miss from the pricier big-box versions then I can't argue with that difference in the compact versions.

The big-box Cali76 comps were hardly a perfect 1176 representation either, they were a take on "1176-style" compression in a pedal form back when there were far fewer FET-based pedal compressors to choose from but noticeably different to most folks who have compared to an original 1176 (and much different than comparing a Urei 1176 to a modern rackmount 1176 clone)- different attack envelopes (including different available control range, different feel), different tonal signatures, etc. Part of the Cali76 is mythology attached to the 1176 name quite honestly (mostly for people who haven't used an actual 1176 regularly- few people would choose a Cali76 in a studio over an actual 1176 apart from wanting the specifically different character of the Cali), but the Origin comps have a particular midrange harmonic character and tightness that have become their own Cali-76 "signature" character not really consistent with an actual 1176. Part of this harmonic character is what the compact Origin compressors have most in common with the big-box versions.

Nothing else sounds like a Cali76 comp (even an actual 1176), big or small box, so that is the draw of their compressors. That is honestly the best stand-out feature they could have to offer! But the small-box versions offer features not found on the big ones too (clean blend, sidechain HPF). Not sure what more they could offer to "stand out" without requiring a massive box that is a deal-killer for many players. I no longer have an Origin comp, but appreciated the Cali76-CB for what it was and certainly would say it stuck out just fine in the world of compressors.

A big part of the price premium is simply that these are all made in the UK- thats not a cheap place to exist, let alone manufacture things! But also a pretty box and the implication of "quality"

Thank you for the detailed write up, the bit on the mid-range character they have regardless of big/small box and why people gravitate towards it was extremely helpful, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[DaveParker39]

The big-box Cali76 comps were hardly a perfect 1176 representation either, they were a take on "1176-style" compression in a pedal form back when there were far fewer FET-based pedal compressors to choose from but noticeably different to most folks who have compared to an original 1176 (and much different than comparing a Urei 1176 to a modern rackmount 1176 clone)- different attack envelopes (including different available control range, different feel), different tonal signatures, etc. Part of the Cali76 is mythology attached to the 1176 name quite honestly (mostly for people who haven't used an actual 1176 regularly- few people would choose a Cali76 in a studio over an actual 1176 apart from wanting the specifically different character of the Cali), but the Origin comps have a particular midrange harmonic character and tightness that have become their own Cali-76 "signature" character not really consistent with an actual 1176. Part of this harmonic character is what the compact Origin compressors have most in common with the big-box versions.

This is sort of a "thing" in pedals, isn't it.

The original univibe was supposed to simulate a rotating speaker. It didn't do that terribly well, but it did do its own thing well enough that people chase the classic univibe sound (an extra juicy phaser, essentially)

 

[ra0ulduke]

What I find interesting about these topics time and again is the fact that truly experienced musicians are involved, yet everyone acts as if they didn't know that, in a mix, you can barely hear any differences anyway. The audience certainly can't. The only situations where these relatively small differences matter are in particularly quiet musical styles that focus on individual instruments or playing alone in the bedroom.

 

[bass player 53]

What I find interesting about these topics time and again is the fact that truly experienced musicians are involved, yet everyone acts as if they didn't know that, in a mix, you can barely hear any differences anyway. The audience certainly can't. The only situations where these relatively small differences matter are in particularly quiet musical styles that focus on individual instruments or playing alone in the bedroom.

I tried to make that point in the Pino Palladino hand wound or not thread, but it resulted in one hand clapping.

 

[Challanger2]

What I find interesting about these topics time and again is the fact that truly experienced musicians are involved, yet everyone acts as if they didn't know that, in a mix, you can barely hear any differences anyway. The audience certainly can't. The only situations where these relatively small differences matter are in particularly quiet musical styles that focus on individual instruments or playing alone in the bedroom.

Depends on monitoring. 100% agree on audience not being able to tell, but one of my bands recently switched to in ears, and it definitely highlights the difference between some of the items when performing

 

[sunbeast]

This is sort of a "thing" in pedals, isn't it.

The original univibe was supposed to simulate a rotating speaker. It didn't do that terribly well, but it did do its own thing well enough that people chase the classic univibe sound (an extra juicy phaser, essentially)

Yes for sure- Origin definitely made something great that I think stands on its own!

 

[sunbeast]

What I find interesting about these topics time and again is the fact that truly experienced musicians are involved, yet everyone acts as if they didn't know that, in a mix, you can barely hear any differences anyway. The audience certainly can't. The only situations where these relatively small differences matter are in particularly quiet musical styles that focus on individual instruments or playing alone in the bedroom.

We also all know that we choose gear for how it makes us feel, regardless of whether the audience can tell (I'd argue no gear on stage is for the audience's benefit, the performance is what is for the audience's benefit). If we are more content then theoretically we are vibing more for the audience regardless of nuanced differences in sound.

 

[gillento]

.... The audience certainly can't. .....

I am not so sure about this.
Sound quality on stage or in IEMs make you play better or worse.... The audience WILL notice!
Otherwise everybody should just use a P with flats, a Ray or a J.

 

[ra0ulduke]

We also all know that we choose gear for how it makes us feel, regardless of whether the audience can tell (I'd argue no gear on stage is for the audience's benefit, the performance is what is for the audience's benefit). If we are more content then theoretically we are vibing more for the audience regardless of nuanced differences in sound.

I am not so sure about this.
Sound quality on stage or in IEMs make you play better or worse.... The audience WILL notice!
Otherwise everybody should just use a P with flats, a Ray or a J.

These are the usual myths used to justify expensive purchases. Yet the question remains: why do bassists in world-famous bands use gear like SansAmps or other moderately priced equipment? I can only repeat myself: I've invested absurd amounts of money in my passion. But I don't claim that this makes me play better or sound better to the audience. After more than three decades on stages large and small, I know one thing: most of the audience hasn't got a clue about any of this and they couldn't care less what gear the musicians are using.