Why do guitar sounds always bury the bass?

[Colonel_Claypoo]

this question is mainly concerned with music that has one or more distorted guitars in it.
i was wondering why does the guitar sound makes the bass sound, in its whole spectrum, inaudible in certain frequencies?
is it just a matter of which instrument is louder when amplified?

if so, a bass that is only the slightest bit louder in every frequency would bury the guitar?

what about frequencies cancelling each other out?
i though that if two frequencies of the same wavelength? met each other, they would erase themselves.
but if that were the case, a lot would be missing from the sound of a guitar or bass or even whole band when playing together.

what's the deal here?

thanks

 

[OtterOnBass]

To start, your ears is more sensitive to mids than lows. It takes a lot less power for a guitar to overpower a bass. Guitar inherently makes a lot more sound in the sensitive range. Bass is often EQ'd to eliminate the sensitive mid-range, thus making it hard to distinguish.

To make the bass cut through the guitar sound, you'll need to add more mids, specifically lower mids. To remove the overpower of the guitar, you'll need to open a hole for the bass by turning down the lower end. Please note that this is just general advice - you may find playing with the EQ that in your case you can share the EQ spectrum in another way.

For frequencies to cancel out, they have to be identically opposite. They won't likely being do this in your case, but they will add/subtract from each other in different ways as you change your location. I think in this case we're not seeing this as much as the low-end not having enough power to stand up to the ear-sensitive mid-range.

 

[SteveC]

Mostly because of EQ. A good FOH guy will know how to EQ so that no one if fighting for the same "sonic space" in the mix.

 

[megadan]

It depends on so many things, not just physics and pyscho-acoustics, but mixing, genre, sound system, etc. Really at any point in the chain, from instrument to ears, the bass can get buried.

Often in heavy music what sounds best for the whole song is having the guitars clearer than the bass, and so that's the way it's mixed. It's hard to argue with this sometimes, and it depends on the genre.

Obviously EQ of the bass is important, as mentioned. Starting with heavily mid-cut bass isn't going to produce a cutting bass in the end product.


Ultimately to me it's a problem with the guitarist, more so their general attitude. The best guitarists, and to me, the best music, have figured out that guitars are meant to be melodic instruments, and the guitarists I play with are generally playing melodies, counterpoint, and different rhythmic patterns than I'm playing. This gives the bass a supporting role, which is then reflected in the EQ, mixing, etc.

Hope that's clear.

 

[RicPlaya]

First place to start is to have the guitars clean up the tone a bit and take their bass out and obviously turn down. It's always a battle with guitar players " whoa man, but that's my sound..how can you tell me to change my tone". Well first they have to understand where they fit in the mix. They are not the bass guitar, and tell them "just for now" to clean up the tone and take out some distortion. You need to fiddle with your EQ and get low and loud. I switched to flatwound strings, that got me where I needed to be playing with two guitars in my band. Then again the guys I play with also are very concerned about not being to dirty or bassy with their tone so the WHOLE band sounds good, not just their instrument. Hopefully the guys you jam with are cool and will meet you half way.

 

[Qvist]

This is actually a very interesting subject, one that I'm aware of many bassist are struggling with. If we're talking heavy music, I think people should check out the "The world needs a hero" album with Megadeth, Dave Ellefson really cuts through and it feels like theres room for every instrument to breathe on it.

Check out Dread and the fugitive mind for an example:

 

[kalle74]

it´s also a matter of compression...

distortion is a rude form of compression, so heavily distorted guitars are also heavily compressed, and hence "present" more easily. add to the fact that guitars are in the "ear-sensitive" range, and guitarists often have more than enough low end in their sound...

bass is also very sensitive to acoustics. reverberant surroundings make for indistinctive boom.

 

[SteveD]

I played with Phil Brown (trio lineup) for a while www.philbrownguitar.com and he kept telling me to turn up. Finally I said, "Dude, I feel like I'm burying you." He said, "My band sound has huge bass, and my guitar just cuts a little hole in that huge bass sound."

Bands with loud busy guitars and buried bass sound lousy.

It's the addition of a second guitar that usually causes the problem. If you get two guys scrubbing away with barre chords, it's mud before the bass ever gets a chance. That's why you always hear bassists talking about mids to cut through. Unfortunate, it shouldn't be done that way. You are just competing on the guitarists' field. Leave mucho s--p--a--c--e in your music. Record and listen to whats going on, and usually too much is going on. Most bands project a dull wall of sound with blurry or buried vocals. Space and dynamics, that's where it's at. Record and listen.

 

[GregShadoan]

I guess I have been lucky, mostly playing in three peice bands all my life. I have played with 2 guitar players before, and it wasn't that bad. Currently the electric guitar player in our band uses a 15 watt amp, to my bass @ 200 watts. so it balances well.
But I dont play metal anymore so YMMV.

 

[phxlbrmpf]

In my experience, much of this also has to do with guitarists using too bass-heavy sounds. In my experience, for a guitar sound to work in a group so that everyone can be heard, convincing the guitar player/s to turn down that bass knob a fair bit is pretty much essential. Of course it will sound thinner to them than when they play alone, but playing with a bass player pretty much negates this. By the way, this definitely doesn't apply to distorted guitar tones only -- I've been drowned out by guitarists with a clean sound tons of times.

 

[Sundogue]

I know I'll get all kinds flak for this (but it's OK, I'm used to it)...

Try using flatwounds...specifically flatwounds that are strong in the mids...something like DR Chromes and others like that.

The reason I mention using flats instead of rounds is that when playing alone, rounds sound great. But when playing in a live setting with two other guitars, having your bass sound like a lower tuned guitar instead of sounding like a bass will make it tough for you to distinguish your sound from the guitars.

It isn't just a matter of volume or frequencies, but also about how you sound. Flats have a stronger fundamental, less harmonics and overtones and the note will decay quicker than with roundwounds. Flats will make the bass sound like a bass and not just a lower tuned guitar. While roundwounds sound great, most of what makes them sound great just gets lost in the mush of the guitar's sonic wash.

Especially when you consider that a lot of heavy guitarists today are either playing 7 string guitars or they are down tuning. Combine that with most bass players today using roundwounds, effects and brighter amps/cabs, it's no wonder the bass is getting lost in the mix. It isn't really getting lost, it's just joining in with the sonic mush the guitar players are in.

If you want to separate your bass from the guitars, simply boosting mids will help you get heard, but it will also add to the guitar mix. Bass is a lower register instrument, but it can just end up sounding like another guitar making a band with two guitars sound like it has three. Where's the bass?

Try flats and see if you don't actually find that you don't even have to play as loud to be heard more distinctly. Flats aren't for everyone or every musical situation, but they certainly can help give a bass the separation one might be looking for...especially in rock music.

 

[mambo4]

To make the bass cut through the guitar sound, you'll need to add more mids, specifically lower mids.

While this is on track, I think the most effective method is the opposite: Remove the bass/low mids from the guitars. In my recording courses, I was taught to prefer "subtractive" EQing, where rather than boosting what you want, you cut what you don't want. Of course this requires cooperative guitarists who are sincerely concerned about the overall sound of the mix.

The problem is that most guitarist (and many bassists) spend hundreds of hours in their bedroom tweaking their amps/guitars/pedals to get their "killer tone" Without understanding anyone's solo tone is drastically different from their tone in the mix.

article about EQing various instruments' frequency ranges.

 

[dougjwray]

I know I'll get all kinds flak for this (but it's OK, I'm used to it)...

Try using flatwounds...specifically flatwounds that are strong in the mids...something like DR Chromes and others like that.

The reason I mention using flats instead of rounds is that when playing alone, rounds sound great. But when playing in a live setting with two other guitars, having your bass sound like a lower tuned guitar instead of sounding like a bass will make it tough for you to distinguish your sound from the guitars.

It isn't just a matter of volume or frequencies, but also about how you sound. Flats have a stronger fundamental, less harmonics and overtones and the note will decay quicker than with roundwounds. Flats will make the bass sound like a bass and not just a lower tuned guitar. While roundwounds sound great, most of what makes them sound great just gets lost in the mush of the guitar's sonic wash.

Especially when you consider that a lot of heavy guitarists today are either playing 7 string guitars or they are down tuning. Combine that with most bass players today using roundwounds, effects and brighter amps/cabs, it's no wonder the bass is getting lost in the mix. It isn't really getting lost, it's just joining in with the sonic mush the guitar players are in.

If you want to separate your bass from the guitars, simply boosting mids will help you get heard, but it will also add to the guitar mix. Bass is a lower register instrument, but it can just end up sounding like another guitar making a band with two guitars sound like it has three. Where's the bass?

Try flats and see if you don't actually find that you don't even have to play as loud to be heard more distinctly. Flats aren't for everyone or every musical situation, but they certainly can help give a bass the separation one might be looking for...especially in rock music.

"DR Chromes" <--??
But I agree.
A little story: About 25 years ago (yes, I'm old) I was in a band with a fine lead guitarist with a sound that was loud, fat, distorted. A '59 Les Paul into a Marshall stack, or into a Mesa Boogie combo. It was killer: it killed my tone in the mix. He also happened to be the guy who walked out into the room during soundchecks to help EQ everything. He was always telling me to boost my highs ("More presence! More presence!") and cut my mids, in order to be heard. Around the same time, we recorded an EP and I really liked the bass sound the engineer was getting, even before mixing. I asked him, "Are you cutting the mids?" and he replied, "No way! The mids are what makes it cut through!!"
So, there you go...

Anyway, flatwounds. Definitely.

 

[Sundogue]

While this is on track, I think the most effective method is the opposite: Remove the bass/low mids from the guitars. In my recording courses, I was taught to prefer "subtractive" EQing, where rather than boosting what you want, you cut what you don't want. Of course this requires cooperative guitarists who are sincerely concerned about the overall sound of the mix.

The problem is that most guitarist (and many bassists) spend hundreds of hours in their bedroom tweaking their amps/guitars/pedals to get their "killer tone" Without understanding anyone's solo tone is drastically different from their tone in the mix.

article about EQing various instruments' frequency ranges.

I agree. Cutting is preferable to boosting...generally. It seems that once you start boosting, it becomes an all-out war on frequencies until they all are boosted and the volume gets out of hand (like leveling a table by cutting legs...eventually it's just a useless table top). And really, how one sounds alone is meaningless as that sound will more than likely not work in the context of the band's overall sound.

Band members really do need to work together and resolve sound issues. It is all about how the instruments work together.

 

[runmikeyrun]

It always surprises me when we go in to the studio to record the way the sounds come out. When the full band is playing it sounds great. When you solo instruments you're like "hey, that's not how the (guitar/bass) is supposed to sound!" I used to have a really bass heavy guitarist. In order to cut through i was a really mid heavy bass player. In the studio they cut the lows on the guitars and the mids on the bass. It sounds awesome. I'm not talking about major changes, just enough to make things sit properly in the mix. Now if i could have only gotten the guitard to back off the lows at practice...

 

[The modifier]

I had this problem when I went trough my OMG FIELDY phase, I kept turning down the mids and having a sound that was in the resemblance of a warm fart, thats until after I heard how bad my tone sounded in a recording (pure rubbling warm farts), I now stick with a tone which to at least to my ears sounds like it has some major B*lls, I keep my lows at 6, low mids at 7, high mids at 6,treble at 5, and I keep the tone on my bass blasted at max running the neck pick up, provides more of a growl than a punch but it works great for me, cuts trough our guitarist like a sharpened knife (and hes got twice the power in his stack than I have in my combo amps.) another side note those aren't O'clock positions

 

[Colonel_Claypoo]

I know I'll get all kinds flak for this (but it's OK, I'm used to it)...

Try using flatwounds...specifically flatwounds that are strong in the mids...something like DR Chromes and others like that.

The reason I mention using flats instead of rounds is that when playing alone, rounds sound great. But when playing in a live setting with two other guitars, having your bass sound like a lower tuned guitar instead of sounding like a bass will make it tough for you to distinguish your sound from the guitars.

It isn't just a matter of volume or frequencies, but also about how you sound. Flats have a stronger fundamental, less harmonics and overtones and the note will decay quicker than with roundwounds. Flats will make the bass sound like a bass and not just a lower tuned guitar. While roundwounds sound great, most of what makes them sound great just gets lost in the mush of the guitar's sonic wash.

Especially when you consider that a lot of heavy guitarists today are either playing 7 string guitars or they are down tuning. Combine that with most bass players today using roundwounds, effects and brighter amps/cabs, it's no wonder the bass is getting lost in the mix. It isn't really getting lost, it's just joining in with the sonic mush the guitar players are in.

If you want to separate your bass from the guitars, simply boosting mids will help you get heard, but it will also add to the guitar mix. Bass is a lower register instrument, but it can just end up sounding like another guitar making a band with two guitars sound like it has three. Where's the bass?

Try flats and see if you don't actually find that you don't even have to play as loud to be heard more distinctly. Flats aren't for everyone or every musical situation, but they certainly can help give a bass the separation one might be looking for...especially in rock music.

thanks man.
i was following your flatwounds thread and i'm eager to give it a try.
i'm thinking about making my fretless work in my band's music. any ideas for fretless specifically?

 

[Jared Lash]

thanks man.
i was following your flatwounds thread and i'm eager to give it a try.
i'm thinking about making my fretless work in my band's music. any ideas for fretless specifically?

Not traditional flats, but IMO TI Jazz Flats are PERFECT for fretless.

 

[TimmyP]

I find that many guitar distortion tones have too much high end (the guitarist does not notice because the cabinet is pointed at his knees) (I don't know why the mixperson does not notice and compensate in the PA). Some also have too much bottom, which covers up some of the bass.

There is often too much coming from the bass rig somewhere between 60Hz and 250Hz. This kills definition.

Most PAs have a nasty bump at 80Hz, which covers up the notes with a constant drone.

There is often too much top end on the bass rig and the bass in the PA. This accentuates the rhythm of the bass line, but the constant clanking/twanking covers up the notes.

Boost somewhere between 500 and 1000 to add "growl" and note definition to the bass.

 

[dougjwray]

A lot of us started playing back in an era when our heros were people like James Jamerson, Duck Dunn and Paul McCartney. On those recordings, the bass is just about the ONLY instrument anywhere near its range. The bass drum is not very present, and the guitars are jangly or "scratchy" (e.g. Steve Cropper, George Harrison). Almost no competition. Even "Are You Experienced" has guitar sounds that don't have a lot of bottom (no matter how distorted), so Noel Redding's bass owns the low end.
If you were weaned on that stuff, the whole idea of having to fight with guitarists and drummers for space seems sort of unfair, or something.