Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

[69nites]

because they're more expensive ::hides::

 

[JimmyM]

First definition for distort off google is:To deliberately exaggerate or manipulate an image to the extreme. This is often done to draw attention to a feeling or mood of the work of art.

The distinction between soft and hard clipping is very important. It's the reason 100 "tube watts" is so much louder the 100 "SS watts" The wattage rating is what the amp can produce with less then a certain percentage of distortion.

Since a tube distorts gradually it adds pleasing levels of harmonics. Maybe that harmonically rich signal is what you like to hear. I've heard talk about about even and odd order harmonics sounding better and tube and SS amps producing a different series but I don't really know too much about that so I'll defer to people who know what they're talking about.

I'll return to my original statement compression and distortion are why even at a clean setting you prefer tube amps. Just ask Bill Fitz about how essentially flawed some of the speaker designs we love are because of the distortion they produce. The bigger question we like the sound of distortion even at low levels.

Ya, good point. One of my favorite cabs in the world is my double baffle B-15, which is apparently too small for the Delta 15A that's in it according to WinISD, yet it sounds awesome.

 

[gbarchus]

I hope you don't mind me resurrecting an old thread. I'd like to try to "put my finger" on why I use all-tube amps.

I started playing when transistors were first becoming available for bass amps. Acoustic, Kustom, Vox (USA), Standell come to mind. My first "real" bass amp was a solid state Vox Westminster (120 watts w/18" speaker). Fortunately, I transitioned to an Acoustic 360 with TWO 18" speakers and 400 watts. At the same time, I was practicing with a Fender Showman and began to prefer it's sound despite only having 85 watts. Not long after buying the Acoustic 18" "W" cabinets, they became part of the PA and I mic'd the Fender Showman. I wouldn't have argued that it was the tubes or the JBL speakers then but today I am convinced.

People use the terms "clean" and "warm" to describe their experience with bass amps and I think I can understand the terms in spite of the the fact that it appears they are sometimes used in contradiction. I would like to use the term, "bite," to talk about why I use a tube amp.

With only 85 watts the Fender Showman "ran out of gas" pretty fast in live performances. It was hard for me to keep the amp out of distortion. But, I learned that a cleaner 85 watts sounded better than 20%+ distortion if I wanted the kind of bass sound that supported the songs I was playing at the time (Motown, Stax, Beatles...). The problem was that I couldn't keep up with guitarist who were playing with Fender Twin Reverbs, or worse, 100 watt Peavey stacks.

Then came my salvation, the Ampeg SVT with TWO 8X10 cabinets. I had guitar players running for cover for a time until I realized that I preferred the sound of one (240 watt) cabinet, the old AlNiCo CTS ones. Maybe it was because of my days with the Fender Showman but I liked the sound of a little speaker "break up" that I couldn't get with two cabinets.

One thing for sure, the SVT allowed me to compete with the guitar players and I could play "cleanly" if I wanted. By then I realized that just playing clean was NOT my sound. What I DID like was, what I am now calling, the "bite" I got by pushing the SVT (and the speakers) over the clean/distorted threshold just by digging in to the strings for effect. It was clean or distorted when I chose just by using right hand technique.

Some people can talk about output transformer "sag" or saturation and I would agree that the "natural" compression is part of what I like about tubes. But, the main thing is that I have NEVER been able to get that same sound with solid state amps. I've even used an Alembic FB-2 (tube) preamp and a DBX 160 compressor with a 1200 watt solid state power amp (almost as heavy as a tube amp all six space, racked up with a power strip, by the way) to "emulate" the sound I got from the SVT. How can you get that "bite" when you want it using a solid state amp?

Is it subjective, yeah but who cares? Give me an all-tube amp any day. I'll carry it by myself, too!

Gale

 

[GeneralElectric]

I play tube amps because I like the squishy push and pull of a tube power section.

 

[lmfreeman9]

Warm, buttery, greasy, is close. But the word I like is FAT. Fat sounds which are wider. Like an E string sounds fatter than a D string. A tenor sax sounds fatter than an alto.
A Hammond B-3 organ sounds fatter than a piano. Old instruments sound fatter than new instruments. Old school R&B sounds fatter than newer stuff.

These fat sounds are what I prefer and I prefer tube sounds to solid state.

 

[coreyfyfe]

These fat sounds are what I prefer and I prefer tube sounds to solid state.

Everything I play sounds fat but I think it has more to do with these sausage fingers than my tube amps...

 

[mntngrown]

Ya Bob, but I'm trying to narrow it down scientifically as to why we feel that way. And now along with that, I'm trying to also figure out why I get the same kind of SVT jollies from a 6 lb. Markbass amp that's all solid state. Easier said than done for a simpleton like me, I guess, but still worth pursuing.

I got back into playing about 5 years ago. (relic here), and although there may have been SS amps in the early 70's when I quit, I always had Fender tube.
The minute I plugged my LMII in and played it flat, I said "That's the sound of bass" No need to fiddle.
I previously had GK 700rbII and Crown power with an RBI pre.
The latter supposedly cops SVT but the LMII was a plug and play for me. I keep lookin at tube amps on CL but it would have to be a bargain. I just sold the LMII since I have been using higher output micros. Sorry to get off topic but I think the tube sound is in our long term memory from classic rock and blues. I actually tell myself I can hear SVT and 8x10 on my car stereo. Bunk I am sure but there is that sound.

 

[JimmyM]

I got back into playing about 5 years ago. (relic here), and although there may have been SS amps in the early 70's when I quit, I always had Fender tube.
The minute I plugged my LMII in and played it flat, I said "That's the sound of bass" No need to fiddle.
I previously had GK 700rbII and Crown power with an RBI pre.
The latter supposedly cops SVT but the LMII was a plug and play for me. I keep lookin at tube amps on CL but it would have to be a bargain. I just sold the LMII since I have been using higher output micros. Sorry to get off topic but I think the tube sound is in our long term memory from classic rock and blues. I actually tell myself I can hear SVT and 8x10 on my car stereo. Bunk I am sure but there is that sound.

yeah, the likelihood of being 100% right on that is low, indeed. especially now that there are simulators out there that cop those tones very well. a lot has changed in the 2 years since i started this thread, and now it seems like everyone can cop tubey tones with non-tube gear if that's their goal.

however, there's no denying that tube amps are enjoying quite the renaissance with bass players. i love using mine. having said that, i've been toying with the idea of going ampless with my regular band because pedals like the vt bass do an amazing job of sounding like the real thing in the pa. probably won't, though.

 

[Craig_S]

i've been toying with the idea of going ampless with my regular band because pedals like the vt bass do an amazing job of sounding like the real thing in the pa.

It ain't the same as having that thump on stage behind you.

I love the sound of tubes too, but mostly in the preamp. I've been a hybrid guy, for years. At least, until I bought my MarkBass SA450. I still miss the preamp tubes, sometimes.

 

[JimmyM]

It ain't the same as having that thump on stage behind you.

tru dat. bigtime. eh, it was a dumb idea, now that i've thought about it. i think maybe i just want to do it because devo does it now and i couldn't tell the difference of course, they have monitors behind them, which makes it a lot easier to get some thump happening, but we usually don't get enough monitor mixes to make that happen.

 

[D.M.N.]

I keep hearing excellent things about the VT Bass pedal being able to cop some good tube tone, and I finally got a chance to try it out about a week back. I liked it, but not as a tube simulator. The reason I'd buy one is to use it as a distortion pedal. You crank the drive up, and does some really excellent fuzzed out mayhem. But I didn't feel it responded the same as a tube amp. What I love about my Bassman 300 is that when I really start to dig into my strings, it starts to get really growly, not really overdriven, but a bit snarly. That's part of what I love about tube amps. To MY ears, they respond to playing dynamics a lot better than most SS gear. I didn't feel the VT, one of the newest, and highly lauded emulators, had that same respond. It had some response, but not the same level. Oddly enough, some of SS amps I feel respond best are old Peavey's. There's an old peavey combo in one of my practice spaces, and when you crank it up, it's probably my favorite SS amp I've played. It gets a bit fuzzed out, but it still has decent dynamic response. So, what I'm getting at, and echoing GBarchus here, is that one of the big reasons I love Tube amps is the Dynamic response to your playing.

 

[JimmyM]

I didn't feel the VT, one of the newest, and highly lauded emulators, had that same respond. It had some response, but not the same level.

well yeah, you're comparing a half pound stompbox to an 85 lb amp. i don't think even the most ardent fans of the vt, of which i'm probably THE most ardent, would argue with you.

 

[Captain Marvel]

My love of tube heads is down to what I like to refer to as the 'big bada boom' I believe you can only truely get from tubes. Meaning that when when I hit a string if feels like the sound is trying to burst out of the entire cab and is not just coming out of the speakers. Though this is technically nonsense I hope someone gets what I mean!

 

[Seans]

I understand that completely but on the contrary that is exactly what this thread is about. Its like saying lets talk about why donuts taste good but dont say anything about fat and sugar. One way or the other it is still distortion of the signal in some form. Even in the linear range of amplification or "clean tones" which is a subjective term, if you are hearing any difference at all the output signal is distorted from the input.

If you want an engineers explanation on what you hear from tube amps that differs from SS amplification, the simple answer is distortion. It comes in different forms.

Would a hifi engineer say that?, I think not, some of the best HiFi amps are Tube amps and they can go very loud without distortion, I think your engineer is confusing SS harsh and brittle with Tube warmth and soul, different sounds but neither is distortion.

 

[Seans]

On another tack, my 70 SVT has, in the pre, all its original tubes 1x12ax7 and 3 12dw7's, now my old 71 i had 20 years ago, had 12ax7's all the way through and it used to break up earlier than my 70, I think I actually prefer the sound of the 70 with its 12dw7's. How would you change the sound of your pre on a SS amp, tubes I love them, like little organic bottles of individuality ( have I been drinking )

 

[s_mcsleazy]

i can be more dynamic with tubes

plus i agree with the whole smell thing

no ss amp i have EVER played smells like my 38yo bassman

 

[calebbarton]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

that is a fantastic article! thanks!

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

Would a hifi engineer say that?, I think not, some of the best HiFi amps are Tube amps and they can go very loud without distortion, I think your engineer is confusing SS harsh and brittle with Tube warmth and soul, different sounds but neither is distortion.

He's not talking about overdriving the amp hes talking about distortion in the clean signal ie. THD - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion

tubes produce mostly even order harmonics which sound nicer to your ears than the odd ones that SS amps produce. Although this also depends heavily on the circuit. Which is why some valve amps sound more "valvey" than other.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

They work better with fuzz boxes.

 

[will33]

I don't want to hear any nonsense about distortion. It has nothing to do with distorted tones. I prefer the sound of a tube amp running clean over an SS or hybrid running clean as well. And I don't really understand why. I know that TF's play into it, and I know that there's a certain tonality to it that I like. But I can't put my finger on it, and it seems to be discussed in vague terms like "pleasing tones," "mojo" and "vibe." Bill FM once posted that compression is why we like tubes, but didn't really expound.

So why do we like tubes?

To quote something from 2 years ago, I'm also a big fan of the "warm but pretty clean" tube sound, not a distortion/overdrive guy when it come to bass. And I can't put my finger on it either Jimmy. It just seems more responsive to your right hand. More "pure". I can't quantify it in terms of eq profiles or compression or volume. Actually, when just listening, there are plenty of rigs that sound great that don't have tubes in them, at least not power tubes. It's when you play them where the differences are so great....but only to the guy playing them...but since that's me, it matters.

They just seem to fill out sound that others don't and respond to subtle differences in attack, hand position, etc. Same is true for a good guitar amp and player. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the player. No slop, unless your only dynamic is balls to the wall all the time. That can get really boring, really fast. They're more "touch responsive".

I usually think of this stuff in a more technical manner but all I can come up with now is magazine article terms.