Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

[JimmyM]

there was a discussion reguarding why valve amps sound louder than tube amps in an amp builers forum. someone suggested that it was because of the output transformer. the output transformer may be part of the reason they sound so good to us.

really it has to do with non-linear operation somehow.

the amp will put something out that is not the same as what is going in. wether it is distortion (even or odd order harmonics, symetrical or asymetrical and at what level), some type of compression and response at different frequencies (and how distortion and compression work at the different frequencies).

i believe that the harmonic distortion tends to create a fuller sound by adding harmonics to the notes. ie, a 40hz signal would be distorting a bit (even at clean) creating some 80hz, 120hz, 160hz ... which fills out the sound to us, as the actual fundamental is barely sounding, and the lower mids tend to make it sound bigger.

remember, tube data sheets show that in normal operation (not at full output or anything) distortion is usually around 5-10%, depending on the tube and the circuit. solid state is usually around 0.1% or something like that. im sure that the distortion is at least part of the reason. i think the distortion level probably drops off quickly as the harmonics increase, which may be part of it as well

Ah! So the distortions actually enhance the harmonics without making it sound dirty? Did I actually just understand something technical?

Metron, I appreciate the effort but your personal preferences are so not what we're talking about in this thread. We are talking about those of us who prefer tubes for CLEAN tones. Believe it or not, many of us do.

 

[Bassmec]

Its a great many variables, you have the tubes them selves the negative feedback circuit, the coupling caps, the output transformer.
It is nothing like a solid state amp, it don't look like one, smell like one or sound like one.
No big surprise that something that isn't another thing is somehow subtilely different.
Many SS amp manufacturers have made great efforts to try to make
designs that sound all tube, they have had some success but they don't capture every detail of tube goodness.
It could be said that what's happening here is that Tube amps make your bass guitar, pedals and speakers more transparent.
IE. What your brain transparently thinks a bass should sound like and feel like to play, is now actually occurring.
My theory is that Dinosaur's are thin at one end fatter in the middle and quite thin at the other end.

 

[metron]

Metron, I appreciate the effort but your personal preferences are so not what we're talking about in this thread. We are talking about those of us who prefer tubes for CLEAN tones. Believe it or not, many of us do.

I understand that completely but on the contrary that is exactly what this thread is about. Its like saying lets talk about why donuts taste good but dont say anything about fat and sugar. One way or the other it is still distortion of the signal in some form. Even in the linear range of amplification or "clean tones" which is a subjective term, if you are hearing any difference at all the output signal is distorted from the input.

If you want an engineers explanation on what you hear from tube amps that differs from SS amplification, the simple answer is distortion. It comes in different forms.

 

[NickyBass]

I think the transformers have alot to do with the tone. As an example, check out the Jonas Helborg amp and various studio preamps.

One thing that I dig about certain tube heads is the simplicity. There are alot more complex all tube heads these days, but something like the B-15 is the bare minimum of what is needed to amplify a signal. The components, if carefully choosen, color the tone, compress the tone, distort the tone, etc, but there are very few extra (unnecissary?) gain stages and 'tone suckers.' It seems that the boutique tube amp builders are doing away with effects loops, compressors, aural enhancers, etc. I think if an amp is designed to sound good, then there is no need to enhance it aurally. The tone is already there. With that said, though, there are a few solid state heads that really impress me. The Thunderfunk, AMP, and the Marc Bass are all great amps, but I think that they were designed with tone in mind....as opposed to making them 'sound' good on paper.

 

[quickervicar]

Several reasons I like them:

-listening fatigue (rather, a lack there-of). I can play louder & longer with a tube head without my ears complaining. I first noticed this with a guitarist's amp. Practice went so much easier without my eardrums getting chirped at by his SS amp. (and I wear earplugs) I believe that this has something to do with...

-compression. Tubes do fatten things up quite a bit by squashing the signal. I noticed first when I added my RNC in front of my Nemesis combo. WOW! It makes it sound tight, buttery & warm all at the same time. While I like my RNC in front of my tube pre's the difference is not night & day like it is with the SS.

-regardless of what you've heard, I am not a tube snob. I've owned (and still own) several SS amps that have served me well. They sound good to me. In fact, some of the best amps I've heard have been SS units. However, I plug into my tube rig after a stint on an SS and I always get that "Ahhhhhhh" sigh of relief. They are rewarding amps to play.

 

[black_labb]

good point bassmec

there is much less negative feedback on tube amps (and some guitar amps such as ac15/30, 5e3 deluxe and others have none). solidstate has alot more, which helps reduce distortion and has other effects as well. i remember reading somehting a long time ago which talked about the negative feedback and its effect, but i cant remember what it said about it (read it before i knew enough tor really understand).

and jimmy, yes you can have distortion without it sounding dirty. the problem is when we think of distortion, you think of all the other effects of a cranked tube amp such as the huge amount of compression and other things.

the sound of a overdriven tube amp tends to have very little attack (due to alot of compression), but the harmonic distortion gives the higher harmonics. this makes it sound like the attack is being sustained, and why alot of guitarists say that an amp gives sustain. when its not turned up so much the amp creates just the harmonics and much less compression and non-symetrical waveforms that you get with higher levels of distortion from turning the amp up.

 

[Surly]

I like carrying an 80 pound amp, it makes me feel good that I can lift it without being in any pain afterwards.

 

[fretlessman71]

I like carrying an 80 pound amp, it makes me feel good that I can lift it without being in any pain afterwards.

Enjoy that while it lasts.

 

[mrpillow]

My question to some of you people is, when you first play a tube amp or compare it to a SS counterpart, isn't it possible that you just think it sounds better in the ways you've described, because that's what you've been told, and expect, a tube amp would do? Surely there has to be a large psychological aspect to this tube vs SS argument

 

[johnk_10]

My question to some of you people is, when you first play a tube amp or compare it to a SS counterpart, isn't it possible that you just think it sounds better in the ways you've described, because that's what you've been told, and expect, a tube amp would do? Surely there has to be a large psychological aspect to this tube vs SS argument

My answer is no. It is definitely NOT possible. There is a night and day difference and I have yet to play thru a SS amp that gives me the same response as an all tube one. I currently have alot of both types of amps so i'm not going by what i've been "told".

 

[TSanders]

My question to some of you people is, when you first play a tube amp or compare it to a SS counterpart, isn't it possible that you just think it sounds better in the ways you've described, because that's what you've been told, and expect, a tube amp would do? Surely there has to be a large psychological aspect to this tube vs SS argument

For me, I cant say it is psychological and Ill tell you why.

The first time I heard an all tube Ampeg amp, I was an anti-Ampeg guy. I wanted to be different, and since so many people played Ampeg amps, I didnt dig em. So I played my first all tube Ampeg (an SVT CL) wanting to NOT like it, and hoped it would suck tonally. It was actually quite the opposite. Up until that point my opinion was that SS amps were all around better than tube amps. Now I feel the other way around.

 

[Beefbass]

If there are enough tubes in the amp, it makes a great system for cooking some eggs and sausage during a gig-if you have to run out before you get to eat. just put a little skillet over where the power amp tubes are, and cook as desired-drum solo is usually a perfect time for flipping the eggs over!


All kidding aside, while I don't have any specific preference myself, I will admit that at least to me, there seems to be a warmth to a tube amp that just doesn't come from a SS amp. The SS amps nowadays get very darn close, but not quite. I really can't explain why, but thats just my .02 cents

 

[hired hand]

1. Out Tranny
2. The harmonics that human ears find pleasing do not exist inside of a crystal.

 

[pedro]

Frankly I dont understand why someone would lug around any tube amp for clean tone. Solid state does it just as well, weighs less, and can be much more powerful.

Please keep in mind that I am the least technical person on this forum. With that in mind, my reply to your question is, because the clean tube sound is different and sounds better (to me) than the clean SS amp. BTW, I am aware that 'distortion' has a different definition in engineering terms. But my reference to 'clean' and 'distorted' is in a layman's commonly used version.

 

[chicago_mike]

Speaking of distortion:

Peavey Classic 400, is 400 watts rms at 5% distortion. Thats a terrible rating for an SS amp, but a tube amp, well you wont hear it.....to a point.

Peavey was cool enough to send me schematics and bias procedures of the amp when i had my first one, the tweed one. =)

 

[slyderhodge]

I thought my old drummer summed it up by calling the tone of my tube amp compared to another bassist SS amp bot fairly high quality.

rich and creamy... like butter...

shortly there after he forbid from ever playing anthing but Mesa

 

[chicago_mike]

Wish my friend still had his traynor I modded, I did so mauch stuff to that thing, local feedback, changed the power tubes to 6550's, added a tonal balance control..and other good mods...wish i wrote thmods down too..I'd post what I did and how I did it.

 

[BobXboB]

My question to some of you people is, when you first play a tube amp or compare it to a SS counterpart, isn't it possible that you just think it sounds better in the ways you've described, because that's what you've been told, and expect, a tube amp would do? Surely there has to be a large psychological aspect to this tube vs SS argument

I've heard enough "experts" rave about tube tone at concerts based on what they see on stage while being ignorant of the fact that they are hearing a DI through the PA to know that the psychological aspect exists in many experts. I've also personally never seen anyone be able to identify if a recording was made with tube or SS just by listening and that also suggests this is like wine snobs going on about what they read on the label.

 

[johnk_10]

I've heard enough "experts" rave about tube tone at concerts based on what they see on stage while being ignorant of the fact that they are hearing a DI through the PA to know that the psychological aspect exists in many experts. I've also personally never seen anyone be able to identify if a recording was made with tube or SS just by listening and that also suggests this is like wine snobs going on about what they read on the label.

Alot of tube amps are also mic'd thru the PA so you might still get some of it. I have stated before on this forum that I can get the "tube" sound in a studio using 100% solid state devices, which would also mean that i probably could also do it live as well. It just takes a Sansamp PSA-1 (with some tweaking) and a URIE 1176 and viola, instant Ampeg SVT. To me, there is no snobbery involved in using, liking, or preferring a tube amp, its just a response thing for me. And all amps (tube or solid state) are just a box full of electronics=no big deal.

2 cents..........

 

[Kindness]

I've heard enough "experts" rave about tube tone at concerts based on what they see on stage while being ignorant of the fact that they are hearing a DI through the PA to know that the psychological aspect exists in many experts. I've also personally never seen anyone be able to identify if a recording was made with tube or SS just by listening and that also suggests this is like wine snobs going on about what they read on the label.

Lots of reasons to be skeptical based on psychological aspects, but I question your definition of experts.