Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

[Eminor3rd]

i would take issue with the last two. yes, when running in the red, compression is involved, but the truth is my svt is the least compressed-sounding amp i've ever played when it's clean. i get a level of response to touch that i can only dream about when using a ss rig.

and as for the psychological affinity, only people who don't like tube amps believe that.

Actually, you're probably right about the first one. I'll still argue that it's true, but I'd say it probably has more to do with the speakers than the amp. I would be willing to put some money on the notion that the overwhelming majority of "tube lovers" also love the "vintage" type speaker cabinets that tend to go along with them, i.e. Ampeg SVT-810e, which are intentionally voiced with a lot of compression to simulate the "vintage" sound.

As for the second one, there are exceptions to the rule (and maybe you're one of them), but come on man, we should all come to terms with the fact that there's a significant effect for "liking what we WANT to like" when it comes to bass gear.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit it in previous posts, that there's just something about having a tube amp and a huge cabinet or something that makes you feel more comfortable, even though you think your LMII sounds "tubey" and is way easier to carry around. I definitely remember you admitting that despite the practical benefits it affords your back, you feel embarrassed to be using a P-Bass Lyte because it seems "wimpy."

That's psychological affinity, my friend.

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

Actually, you're probably right about the first one. I'll still argue that it's true, but I'd say it probably has more to do with the speakers than the amp. I would be willing to put some money on the notion that the overwhelming majority of "tube lovers" also love the "vintage" type speaker cabinets that tend to go along with them, i.e. Ampeg SVT-810e, which are intentionally voiced with a lot of compression to simulate the "vintage" sound.

As for the second one, there are exceptions to the rule (and maybe you're on of them), but come on man, we should all come to terms with the fact that there's a significant effect for "liking what we WANT to like" when it comes to bass gear.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit it in previous posts, that there's just something about having a tube amp and a huge cabinet or something that makes you feel more comfortable, even though you think your LMII sounds "tubey" and is way easier to carry around. I definitely remember you admitting that despite the practical benefits it affords your back, you feel embarrassed to be using a P-Bass Lyte because it seems "wimpy."

That's psychological affinity, my friend.

What valve amps do you have experience with?

 

[gbarchus]

danomite64,

As I said in my post, it's not that it isn't available for humbucker users....

If I can use a guitar analogy it would be like comparing the sound of a Stratocaster through a '57 Deluxe amp versus a Les Paul through a Marshall. It's not that one has it and the other doesn't. But, there IS a difference in dynamics. I think it's the reason some guitarists prefer P90 pickups in their Les Pauls.

Gale

 

[JimmyM]

Actually, you're probably right about the first one. I'll still argue that it's true, but I'd say it probably has more to do with the speakers than the amp. I would be willing to put some money on the notion that the overwhelming majority of "tube lovers" also love the "vintage" type speaker cabinets that tend to go along with them, i.e. Ampeg SVT-810e, which are intentionally voiced with a lot of compression to simulate the "vintage" sound.

As for the second one, there are exceptions to the rule (and maybe you're on of them), but come on man, we should all come to terms with the fact that there's a significant effect for "liking what we WANT to like" when it comes to bass gear.

EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit it in previous posts, that there's just something about having a tube amp and a huge cabinet or something that makes you feel more comfortable, even though you think your LMII sounds "tubey" and is way easier to carry around. I definitely remember you admitting that despite the practical benefits it affords your back, you feel embarrassed to be using a P-Bass Lyte because it seems "wimpy."

That's psychological affinity, my friend.

i guess you got me

 

[nysbob]

As for the second one, there are exceptions to the rule (and maybe you're on of them), but come on man, we should all come to terms with the fact that there's a significant effect for "liking what we WANT to like" when it comes to bass gear.
That's psychological affinity, my friend.

Well, on the other side of the coin - I was gigging with respectable SS amp for a year or two after the loud band I was in quit playing - I left my SVT in a road case and thought "no need to lug that around". Then I thought I'd pull it out just for the hell of it one day and took it to the gig and the light came on...and ever since then I've gladly schlepped that bad boy (or a V4B for one box gigs) around. It was amazing how much more lively my bass sounded.

I don't LOVE to move 85 lbs of glass and transformer around, but if I'm going to go play a gig, I'm damn well gonna enjoy myself, and the enjoyment factor slays the I hate moving gear factor.

 

[low2groove]

Tubes are warm and fuzzy and make you feel good all over, even if it's just a pre-amp tube.

I recently owned several of the boutique bass amps out now and in short time they were all sold to get my tubes back.

I don't care if they color the sound, that's the sound I want.

You can keep the sterile sounding amps, they're just not for me!

 

[aborgman]

i would take issue with the last two. yes, when running in the red, compression is involved, but the truth is my svt is the least compressed-sounding amp i've ever played when it's clean. i get a level of response to touch that i can only dream about when using a ss rig.

Yet, it's actually (by the very definition of the term compression) more compressed than almost any solid state amp.

As for compression only being involved when you're in the red? Nope. Compression is pretty much ALWAYS involved with every amp, no matter how hard you're running it.

and as for the psychological affinity, only people who don't like tube amps believe that.

I love tube amps (and I'm in the process of building a little 6W single ended tube head/preamp) - but anyone who denies psychological affinity is denying reality.

 

[JimmyM]

Yet, it's actually (by the very definition of the term compression) more compressed than almost any solid state amp.

i'd like proof of this. i certainly don't hear it at all until it gets distorted. actually i hear quite a bit more dynamic range with my svt compared to any other amps out there. svt's dg in just as hard as you do no matter how subtle, but i can't say the same for solid state.

as for the psychological affinity part, you could say the same thing vice versa. tell me there's no psychological affinity using solid state amps...sorry, you can't.

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

i'd like proof of this. i certainly don't hear it at all until it gets distorted. actually i hear quite a bit more dynamic range with my svt compared to any other amps out there. svt's dg in just as hard as you do no matter how subtle, but i can't say the same for solid state.

as for the psychological affinity part, you could say the same thing vice versa. tell me there's no psychological affinity using solid state amps...sorry, you can't.

+1

i don't get why most of you solid state guys are so scared of valve amps.

I'm also not sure where this squished things come from, people seem to be throwing alot of buzz words around that they don't really understand.

 

[Mr_Sore_Fingerz]

Presence!!! U can 'feel' a tube amp...

...Sure the 4PRO went LOUDER, but still wasn't Hitting in the chest like the tube amp was-at any volume.
Just My views.

+1 on that....something about how chunky and fat tube sounds. Plus, I don't have to worry about clipping and sounding like garbage thanks to tube compression. It's less hassle (if you have roadies and no technical difficulties) and to me just sounds better. Maybe it's my inability to "EQ my amp correctly" but if saves me time and I get the tone I want, that's what I'm sticking with.

Now if I don't want a tube sound...say if I want something pretty transparent and modern sounding, I'd still go with something like a Carvin BX500 or Little Mark head. I'm a classic tone kind of guy and until they can squeeze my VB2 into a 5lb head, I'll stick with what I love

 

[aborgman]

i'd like proof of this. i certainly don't hear it at all until it gets distorted. actually i hear quite a bit more dynamic range with my svt compared to any other amps out there. svt's dg in just as hard as you do no matter how subtle, but i can't say the same for solid state.

Ok... easy-peasey.

1) Clean = <.1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz.
2) Compare the "clean" dynamic range of your SVT with any modern solid state power amplifier.

Done.

Remember - compression ain't just what you hear. Just as distortion is any variance in the output signal relative to the input (other than pure gain), compression is ANY reduction of total dynamic range.

For example - a 16bit digital recording is "compressed" relative to a 24bit digital recording... and a record album is significantly compressed relative to a 16bit digital recording.

as for the psychological affinity part, you could say the same thing vice versa.

Of course you can - and it applies to just about everything in our lives.

Why do westerners prefer twelve tone scale based music, and other cultures prefer microtonal?

Why do Americans prefer hamburgers over sushi, and the Japanese vice-versa?

Why do men tend to marry women like their mothers, and women marry men like their fathers?

Psychological affinity applies to everything - the food we like, the music, the aesthetics, the cars, hair color on women... everything.

tell me there's no psychological affinity using solid state amps...sorry, you can't.

Of course there is a psychological affinity using solid state amps. It applies to everything.

Heck - probably the biggest psychological affinity in music involves solid state digital electronics. How many TR-808 drum machines do you hear dropping in Rap/Hip Hop/etc?

 

[Mr_Sore_Fingerz]

-listening fatigue (rather, a lack there-of). I can play louder & longer with a tube head without my ears complaining. I first noticed this with a guitarist's amp. Practice went so much easier without my eardrums getting chirped at by his SS amp. (and I wear earplugs) I believe that this has something to do with...

All of your points were good, but this one stood out to me as especially relevant and not talked about thus far.

I CRANKED my 225w tube head through my church rig (Kustom 2x15 cabinet) and could play for freakin hours without my ears hurting in the least. This was also not a quiet situation, I was on my own while the other guys used the PA. When my tube head went out because of the faulty internal fuse, I switched to my backup...a Sansamp RPM through a Behringer EP1500 power amp into the same 2x15s cab. Playing at the same volume with very similar tones I walked away with a wicked headache. For some reason, the tube amp didn't hurt my head even though it was played at louder volumes than my SS rig.

Thank you for bringing that up, very good point.

 

[JimmyM]

Ok... easy-peasey.

1) Clean = <.1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz.
2) Compare the "clean" dynamic range of your SVT with any modern solid state power amplifier.

Done.

Remember - compression ain't just what you hear. Just as distortion is any variance in the output signal relative to the input (other than pure gain), compression is ANY reduction of total dynamic range.

you didn't answer my question. how come my svt sounds way less compressed than any solid state amp i've played?

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

'cuz their watts are more if you have enough ohms.

 

[aborgman]

you didn't answer my question. how come my svt sounds way less compressed than any solid state amp i've played?

Because the human ear is horribly poor at hearing actual textbook "compression" unless it's pretty extreme.

 

[JimmyM]

'cuz their watts are more if you have enough ohms.

HAHAHAHA! no wonder you're a top engineer for a top company, bob!

 

[JimmyM]

Because the human ear is horribly poor at hearing actual textbook "compression" unless it's pretty extreme.

i don't disagree with that, but i can certainly hear it in other amps in direct comparison to my svt.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Wish my friend still had his traynor I modded, I did so mauch stuff to that thing, local feedback, changed the power tubes to 6550's, added a tonal balance control..and other good mods...wish i wrote thmods down too..I'd post what I did and how I did it.

I've done the same thing with a friends Traynor. Spent an entire afternoon progressively modifying the darn thing to get exactly what he was looking for. I had to get it back to document the changes.

Paul

 

[bobwhite]

My journey in Tubes started back about, oh, 1974 when I got my first Fender Bassman with the two-15 cab. I enjoyed watching my dad suffer as he helped me lug the huge cabinet with its heavy wooden frame and giant iron magnet speakers (he would say things like, "Do you really need that big bass, too?" And I'd say, "Dad, you can't hear it without the speakers.").

Then I'd hoist the Bassman head, filled with lead transformers and massive tubelonies, and trudge out to the car. I'd slide it into the front seat floor, as the back seat was full of two-15 cab.

Between the bass cab, amp head, bass case, and other stuff, I'd search around for a place to sit so I could drive the car. And, of course, I'd find one of our two guitarloons to help me tote all that stuff out of my car, since I had to help one of them manhandle that Fender Twin and the other that Marshall.

I had several tube amps after that, including a 100w Orange with two folded horn 18 inch cabs. I needed two linebackers to help move then. My Garsh they were massive. But, they could be heard across state lines. Had that massive throw.

Flash forward to later than that. Solid state head. Hartke--crappy, I guess, but small. Two little Peavey 210 cabs on casters. Sounded really good to me, and my wife's poodle could help move it.

Then I stumbled across Markbass stuff--even smaller, sounds great (to me) and it's just so small and lightweight!! I love it. I am old now, and this portability is so fine.

I've said very little about tone so far. I realize it is out there, tone. Toned muscles, Coppertone, Tone Loc, baritone, etc. It is out there. I think I've got pretty good tone with the Markbass equipment, especially when I mess with the two filters they have to shape the tone. But, it's tone I can put under my arm. Pit tone, kinda.

So, there I am. Old. Into light weight. And Tubes to me are just a band I used to see when I went to school in the Bay Area. Except my guitaroosky has some great tube combo amps he plays through, but he's smart enough not to ask me to carry them unless they have wheels on them and I can roll 'em. Yep, like a Rolling Tone....

 

[Sundogue]

I don't currently own a tube amp (though it's high on my GAS list). I've owned and played through many tube amps and I currently use a SS amp.

Over the years I've come to love using a good compressor. I like using a good amount of it and while I love the tone, what I don't like about compressors is the squashed signal when pushed too much. Tube amps are like using a compressor but without squashing the signal, and without losing any ambiance to softly played notes. With a compressor the lighter you play the less affect it has and the harder you play the more it can kill your tone. But tube amps seem to compress evenly whether you play light or hard and it always has the perfect amount of compression.

I think tube amps are the ultimate in compression. It compresses yet allows the tone to breathe. Tube amps even sound the like the bass is breathing with the music. I think compression is what pedals like the VT are utilizing (just a guess on my part), but no matter what amp or effect you use, they still haven't perfected the tone for SS where it can flow with your playing like a tube amp does. If they could perfect the art of "variable" compression (that evenly flows with your playing like a tube amp does) tube amps would be history. But since they haven't, tube amps will still be the king of bass tone IMO.

Sigh. I really wish they could nail that tone in a SS amp (and apparently some have come close) but not close enough.

So why do we love tubes? I think it's the natural compression inherent in them.