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Why do we tube lovers love tubes?

#141
JimmyM said:
i don't disagree with that, but i can certainly hear it in other amps in direct comparison to my svt.
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Yep - and lots of people can hear compression and distortion in the CD format they don't hear in vinyl...

...but it isn't because viny has less compression and distortion. Yet... thousands of people claim they hear it as "less compressed".

I believe that to your ears your SVT sounds less compressed. That doesn't mean that in reality it's less compressed.
 
#142
Am I misreading something or do some of you think that tubes "naturally" compress the sound more than transistors? That would go against the idea that tubes are more dynamic, or sensitive to changes.

Part of the tube sound IS the compression that occurs when the output transformer is saturated, which is actually limiting the output. This could be occurring, depending on the particular transformer and the voltage of the design, at two or three times the rated output of the amplifier. This is happening at a distortion level that is unpleasing to some but it IS variable which is part of the dynamics. The harder you play the more harmonic ("richer") content but no more volume.

That being said, I am aware that the original question was related to the sound BEFORE the amplifier reaches that level. This is where the harmonic content of a tube is "coloring," or adding "warmth," to the sound. It's difficult for me to say that a tube is cleaner, or as clean, as a solid state device but it IS the way I perceive a tube amp before it reaches higher distortion levels. It may be that some people object to the sound of the added 2nd order harmonics or see this as being less "clean."

I don't run across this debate so much in the high fidelity world where tube amps are acknowledged as some of the "best" sounding amps by people who are listening for accuracy.

Gale
 
#143
Sundogue said:
But tube amps seem to compress evenly whether you play light or hard and it always has the perfect amount of compression.

I think tube amps are the ultimate in compression. It compresses yet allows the tone to breathe. Tube amps even sound the like the bass is breathing with the music. I think compression is what pedals like the VT are utilizing (just a guess on my part), but no matter what amp or effect you use, they still haven't perfected the tone for SS where it can flow with your playing like a tube amp does.

So why do we love tubes? I think it's the natural compression inherent in them.
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I can relate to that description. I think it is pretty accurate.
 
#144
gbarchus said:
Am I misreading something or do some of you think that tubes "naturally" compress the sound more than transistors? That would go against the idea that tubes are more dynamic, or sensitive to changes.

Gale
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Here's where I'm coming from...

I'm no amp guru and don't know much about the technical reasons amps work the way they do. What I meant about compression is the "sound". I've gotten to love compressors for tone (not just as a limiter on peaks). Using a dedicated compressor was the only way for me to achieve any semblance of tube amp tone with SS amps. And I've set my compressors to have a fairly strong effect on my tone.

For some reason tubes seem to be alive in the sense that the sound I hear (whether playing soft or hard, loud or quiet) is similar to that which I get from a dedicated compressor, only one that could adjust itself with every stroke of the strings (if one could do that). The problem with a compressor to simulate a tube amp is that when playing quietly or softly I'd have to crank the compressor and then when playing louder or harder I'd then have to dial it back. An all tube amp just seems (to me) that it does that for me on the fly.

So it appears to me to compress, yet does so dynamically, as if I was fiddling with a compressor on the fly while playing. DVC...Dynamic Variable Compression if you will. NOTE: That's not a real term, I just made it up but that is what a tube amp seems to do for me, and that's what the OP was asking.
 
#147
btw, i'm still waiting for definitive proof, and aborg, with all due respect, i'm not getting it from you. any dope can hear that cd has more dynamic range and less compression than vinyl, and those who can't are lying to themselves. i, otoh, am not. i hear it plain as day. and judging by others' responses in here, so do they.

i want charts and graphs with pretty colors ;)
 
#148
JimmyM said:
sundogue, i so don't get that. btw, i am the op...two years ago ;)
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What's not to get? Is it you don't understand me or you disagree with me?

You asked why tube lovers love tubes. I don't have a tube amp either due to not having the cash for one or my dislike for the weight. However I love the sound of tube amps and I've been trying for years to emulate that sound. And using a dedicated compressor with a SS amp is about as close as I've come to that.

I'm not talking subtle compression either. I'm talking about really cranking up the compression as a tone effect as opposed to using it to control dynamics. The sound I hear with it set to literally compress the sound all the time (whether playing soft or not) is what gets somewhat close to what I hear in a tube amp.

The problem is that is squashes my sound a bit too much and I need to really push my amp hard to get back the volume that is lost and of course I have a loss of sustain and dynamics that does not happen with a tube amp. My point about "DVC" was that when you set a compressor (as BFM mentioned, not the single knob kind) it's affect is only really noticeable for a preset volume or how hard you play. Less so when you play softer or quieter. Tube amps always sound like a tube amp regardless of how quietly of softly you play as it has "that" sound regardless of dynamics. If I could mess around with my compressor while I play I could turn the compression up when playing softly and turn it down when playing harder so that it had the same level of compression for "that tube tone" throughout. But it doesn't, so it is not ideal, but it's closer to the sound I hear from tube amps. And I've tried a myriad of tube preamps but they don't do it at all for me. Makes me think a single preamp tube is just a gimmick, like "Oh look, it has a tube!" LOL.

When given the opportunity to borrow a tube amp, I have sat and played with my own rigs (a variety over the years) and compared them side by side and a compressor comes closest to helping cop that tone. So what's in the design of a VT pedal? Why does that do it? Is it just some magic "tube" dust they sprinkle on it? They give the knob a term like "character", but what is it actually doing? My guess is it is adding some compression to the signal. It isn't as if turning that knob adds more tubes right? Or do they actually pack six power tubes in that little box? And it can't just be an EQ'ing effect either because I've played tube amps through a variety of cabs that don't give that mid bass hump or sound anything like an 810SVT and yet it sure still sounds like a tube amp. Does the Markbass LMII have a bunch of power tubes in it that makes it come close? What is it that makes those things come close to getting that tube sound? Gotta be that magic tube dust only a few know about.

I have not even tried the VT pedal or the LMII, but given that over years of experimentation the only thing that has come anywhere close for me is a dedicated compressor, I'm guessing they use compression as a tonal effect in some manner. Perhaps with so many people's dislike of compressors they couldn't sell the VT pedal or the LMII if they actually labeled the knob "compressor"?

If you still don't understand me, I got nothing more. If you disagree with me, then explain what's in the VT pedal or the Markbass LMII that you say gets it so close to a tube amp. Because if it ain't compression of some kind, I'm the one who doesn't get it and I'd really like to know what they're doing to cop the tube amp tone without tubes.
 
#150
My SVT can have a clean "sterile" sound with a basic flat setting and the Ultra Lo either on zero or minus, and ultra hi off, still with a different feel than my SS amps. However, with some tweaking and drive it has a whole other personality. The sound fits better in a mix IMO. With the VT pedal I find the B-15 settings work well in a mix as well, just about with the pedal's knobs around 12:00 but I like to put the mids up to around 3:00. I use the VT with my Hartke, but haven't tried the VT + SVT in a mix yet.
 
#151
johnk_10 said:
i have a VT pedal, and IMO, there isn't a compressor in it.
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I don't mean that there is a user adjustable compressor built into it. I'm asking what the pedal does exactly to simulate a tube amp sound.

It can't just be a shift of frequencies (ala comping an 810SVT sealed cab with cut lows and boosted lo-mids) because I've had a variety of amps with very extensive EQ's (with both parametric and graphic EQ's) and no matter how I EQ the amp it still doesn't sound like a tube amp.

For that matter, what does any amp modeler do to simulate a tube amp? I have a Zoom B2 and a Carvin BX1200 and using both, the Zoom's and the Carvin's compressors I can get fairly close to a tube amp sound. It's kind of a combination of the Zoom's SVT Amp modeler (heavily modded), along with compression and EQ'ing on the pedal itself, and then the EQ'ing on my amp as well as the Drive control and compressor on the Carvin.

OK...so there is no compression in the VT pedal (that anyone knows anyway, save for the designers)...so what do amp modelers, amps (like the LMII) and/or pedals actually do to try and achieve that tube sound? Why is it the only thing that's ever even come close (for me) to getting a tube sound out of a SS amp is a compressor and the designers apparently don't use that? What combination of effects, EQ'ing, etc. is doing it?

Just because there is no mention of a compressor built into say the VT or LMII doesn't mean it's not built into it somewhere and we don't know it because there is no "compression" knob to twiddle with. My Carvin has a single compressor knob and even that little bit helps.

Many rave about the LMII and the VT pedal to coming as much as 95% to the sound of a tube amp. Really? Then what's being adjusted that is taking the place of valves?
 
#152
gbarchus said:
I don't run across this debate so much in the high fidelity world where tube amps are acknowledged as some of the "best" sounding amps by people who are listening for accuracy.

Gale
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Tube amps are acknowledged as "best" sounding - but definitely not by those looking for accuracy.

The audiophool community LOVES single ended triode, transformerless, tube designs.

They have HUGE amounts of distortion (and due to no output transformer) their output is strongly effected by the speaker they are attached to.
 
#153
JimmyM said:
btw, i'm still waiting for definitive proof, and aborg, with all due respect, i'm not getting it from you.
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I gave it to you.

Compare the CLEAN (< .1% THD, 20HZ-20KHz) frequency response of almost any tube amp you like with the clean frequency response of any modern SS power amp.

The late 1970's Crown DC-300 we use for a PA amp will put out full rated power at < .1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz... with less than an .5dB dip across the entire frequency response.

There ain't a tube amp out there I know of that will come even close to that. Right off the bat you're losing low and high end because of the transformer.

JimmyM said:
any dope can hear that cd has more dynamic range and less compression than vinyl, and those who can't are lying to themselves. i, otoh, am not. i hear it plain as day. and judging by others' responses in here, so do they.
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I think anyone who claims they can hear low levels of distortion and compression (of the sorts inherent in all amplification) are lying to themselves.



i want charts and graphs with pretty colors ;)[/QUOTE]
 
#154
MAMMOTHvolume said:
+1

i don't get why most of you solid state guys are so scared of valve amps.

I'm also not sure where this squished things come from, people seem to be throwing alot of buzz words around that they don't really understand.
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No one is afraid of valve amps. Someone just asked why people like them, and from what I understand, their difference in tone has a lot to do with even order harmonic saturation and natural compression. That's all.

I actually had fairly extensive experience gigging with an old Ampeg V4 when I was sitting in for a friend in his band for a while. Sounds way different than my Eden. Doesn't sound bad, it just doesn't work for me in my current situation.

And the psychological affinity thing applies to everyone that's passionate about gear, not just tube lovers.

I don't understand why there has to be a civil war over this. Tubes are different than SS, they both have pros and cons. You have the right to choose, end of discussion.
 
#155
aborgman said:
The late 1970's Crown DC-300 we use for a PA amp will put out full rated power at < .1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz... with less than an .5dB dip across the entire frequency response.

There ain't a tube amp out there I know of that will come even close to that. Right off the bat you're losing low and high end because of the transformer.
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[/QUOTE]

you have heard of HIFI amps right? Most guitar / bass valve amps aren't designed for flat response. There are a few that'll get near that frequency response though not that you need it for bass guitar.
 
#157
Peavey tried this with the transtube stuff. Whether you like them or not doesn't matter, this covers their idea of what tube amps do that we like and how to mimic it. Covers compression, bias, voltage sag, etc.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#158
aborgman said:
The late 1970's Crown DC-300 we use for a PA amp will put out full rated power at < .1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz... with less than an .5dB dip across the entire frequency response.

There ain't a tube amp out there I know of that will come even close to that. Right off the bat you're losing low and high end because of the transformer.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

You are correct about the DC-300, it was also renowned for outputting its rails at the drop of a hat.

A properly designed OPT will give you 20Hz to 20K Hz without breaking a sweat. The fact that a lot of tube bass amps have poorly designed iron is not the problem of the topology.

Paul
 
#159
aborgman said:
The late 1970's Crown DC-300 we use for a PA amp will put out full rated power at < .1% THD, 20Hz-20KHz... with less than an .5dB dip across the entire frequency response.

There ain't a tube amp out there I know of that will come even close to that. Right off the bat you're losing low and high end because of the transformer.
Click to expand...


the SVT tube power amp easily does 20Hz-20Khz flat as indicated by TrueRTA frequency sweep tests that i have performed.
 

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