Double Bass Why doesn't just the house PA work for stand up bass?

[JKayLM1938]

I have been playing in a trio at a brewery. My stand up bass has a bridge pickup, and i run it into a Fishman Pro, and then into the house PA. We always seem to get feedback during soundcheck, so we have to turn way down the bass in the monitors, and I can only hope that the bass is coming out of the house PA.

Last night another band followed us, and the bass player's sound was great - he had a cabinet directly behind him and the bass came through great. I couldn't tell if the sound out in the crowd came from the cabinet or the PA.

So, my questions are:
1) For a live gig with ~150 people, do you always need a cabinet? Why doesn't the house PA work?
2) When you do have a cabinet on the stage, should the PA mix allow for the bass in the room to come from the cabinet or the PA? Does the cabinet act as a pre-amp and a monitor only?
3) Why doesn't his cabinet create feedback when it is behind the bass, just like the monitor causes feedback in my cabinet-free setup?

Sorry for the newbie questions, I tried finding the answers on the forum, but all seemed to assume some form of stage amp.

Thanks!!!

 

[sean_on_bass]

May have to do with where the monitor is pointing. Is it behind you, like an amp would be, or in front of you pointing directly at the bass? I've not tried just using the PA on any gig, and always have my amp. I generally never have feedback issues with this setup.

Also, i generally use the amp for monitoring primarily, but in small rooms(small bars) i may be amp only and not plugged into the PA at all. I depend on the PA to bring the sound to the audience for bigger rooms.

 

[JKayLM1938]

May have to do with where the monitor is pointing. Is it behind you, like an amp would be, or in front of you pointing directly at the bass? I've not tried just using the PA on any gig, and always have my amp. I generally never have feedback issues with this setup.

Also, i generally use the amp for monitoring primarily, but in small rooms(small bars) i may be amp only and not plugged into the PA at all. I depend on the PA to bring the sound to the audience for bigger rooms.

The monitors are on the floor pointing up at us.

The band that followed us, he has his cabinet right behind him, I thought for sure there would be feedback, but none...

Still, I am wondering why?

 

[kesslari]

Only a guess, but -
The sound waves from the monitor in the front are directly hitting the front of your bass, which is the main vibrating surface of the bass, and is where your pickup is attached (the bridge is attached to the front, the soundboard). The sound waves from the amp behind the bass strike the back surface of the bass, and that is probably slightly muted by contact with the bass player.

 

[JKayLM1938]

Only a guess, but -
The sound waves from the monitor in the front are directly hitting the front of your bass, which is the main vibrating surface of the bass, and is where your pickup is attached (the bridge is attached to the front, the soundboard). The sound waves from the amp behind the bass strike the back surface of the bass, and that is probably slightly muted by contact with the bass player.

Thanks for the answer. So I think I could probably limit the feedback if I can get them to have or use a monitor behind or to the side (I think there is one on the side)...

So that answers question #3, so what do you think about the other ones:

1) For a live gig with ~150 people, do you always need a cabinet? Why doesn't the house PA work?
2) When you do have a cabinet on the stage, should the PA mix allow for the bass in the room to come from the cabinet or the PA? Does the cabinet act as a pre-amp and a monitor only?

 

[Michael Case]

You should use an amp for onstage sound and keep the bass out of the stage monitors.

 

[wilsonn]

I used a Fishman Pro Platinum for a while. I still have it in my bag as a backup. The Fishman Pro Platinum has a high pass filter that a three settings. Low, Medium, High? Cannot remember the corresponding frequency cutoff. It was adequate most of the time but sometimes I dealt with feedback, both when using my amp or when going to the house PA. Since getting a head with a variable high pass filter this issue has been totally eliminated. I can fine tune the frequency of the filter to avoid feedback, and it seems to vary depending on the room, ceiling height, what the floor of the stage is like, placement of monitors, placement of main speakers, etc.

 

[MR PC]

You should use an amp for onstage sound and keep the bass out of the stage monitors.

Excellent advice

 

[JKayLM1938]

You should use an amp for onstage sound and keep the bass out of the stage monitors.

Do you place the amp behind you?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

What kind of music are you playing and what's the instrumentation? How long have you been playing double bass?
Generally, if the room is too large and noisy to play without any amplification and there's a house PA, I use a mic not a pickup on the bass through the system. That's mostly with a quartet of piano, tenor sax and drums. I don't put anything through my monitor, since I'm right on top of the bass.
How big a sound do you get without any amplification?

 

[JKayLM1938]

What kind of music are you playing and what's the instrumentation? How long have you been playing double bass?
Generally, if the room is too large and noisy to play without any amplification and there's a house PA, I use a mic not a pickup on the bass through the system. That's mostly with a quartet of piano, tenor sax and drums. I don't put anything through my monitor, since I'm right on top of the bass.
How big a sound do you get without any amplification?

We play in a noisy environment, always amplified. My quest is to figure out if I can go straight into the house PA with the fishman DI and stop feedback, or should I have an on-stage amp as a monitor & source of bass for the audience. We play old Johnny Cash, Elvis, some slap bass originals like that...

 

[Steven Ayres]

For club and restaurant trio gigs lately I've been putting the bass straight into the mixer with the piano and vocals, out to powered speakers on stands. We haven't been using separate monitors and work just a little above acoustic volume. The most important trick I've found for preventing acoustic feedback in the instrument is to get the output off the floor, at more like head-height.

Generally I don't like going straight to PA because so few sound techs understand bass tone. When I run it myself (as above) I can have a lot more confidence.

There's no reason a monitor-only approach can't work given reasonably good equipment, reasonably good ears operating it, and correct placement relative to the instrument.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

In my experience it depends entirely on who is running sound. I've had great, loud reinforcement on stages that size using only a mic through the monitors (no amp) when the sound person knows what they're doing and understands what the band needs and what the house needs. If the sound person doesn't have much experience with acoustic instruments, especially double bass then you'll most likely get a "Rock" type mix which means feedback.

The second important thing is to take the time to understand yourself how and what your pickup sounds like on your bass and what it does when it's amplified. The Fishman should be plenty of preamp to accomplish this but if you don't know how to take advantage of it, you won't get the full benefit.

Additionally, I think most people think of eliminating feedback as the ultimate goal however you often end up with a less than optimal tone. It's better to strive for and learn how to get a really good sound out of your preamp so that the sound person has plenty to work with. If that means working with an amp as a stage monitor then take the time to get a good, loud tone from your amp.
Good luck!!
-J

 

[JKayLM1938]

For club and restaurant trio gigs lately I've been putting the bass straight into the mixer with the piano and vocals, out to powered speakers on stands. We haven't been using separate monitors and work just a little above acoustic volume. The most important trick I've found for preventing acoustic feedback in the instrument is to get the output off the floor, at more like head-height.

Generally I don't like going straight to PA because so few sound techs understand bass tone. When I run it myself (as above) I can have a lot more confidence.

There's no reason a monitor-only approach can't work given reasonably good equipment, reasonably good ears operating it, and correct placement relative to the instrument.

Steve, I think I gave bad info, when I am talking about the house PA, I meant to say the house board. Sounds like the whole monitor is the issue. I will work on getting the monitor to work, or else run a bass cabinet on the stage.

 

[SLO Surfer]

I ALWAYS use a bass amp behind me as my bass monitor. Small to medium gigs I use it to fill the whole room without going through the PA, and at medium to bigger gigs it's still my stage monitor and I go through the PA for the audience to hear. On big festival stages, on rare occasions I've asked for a bit of my upright bass in my floor wedge monitor, but I'll place that monitor angled at me from my front/right, so it's on the other side of my body from my bass. If you point your amplified upright bass directly at your monitor or your bass amp, it acts just like pointing a microphone directly at a speaker.... feedback central.

Floor monitors are rarely voiced optimally for bass. That's why I always use my amp that gets the sound I love. I always know how my stage volume and tone will be, no matter what venue I play, what PA I go through, or who is running the sound.

If you use in ear monitors instead of floor wedges, then I would think going ampless onstage could be alright.

I'd suggest using an amp, and digging in prettyhard so you're projecting a good amount of volume before you amplify it. The louder you get the bass to sound acoustically, the less you'll have to turn it up in your monitor/amp, the less feedback you'll get.

 

[Ric Vice]

My go to is the Remic LB (Green) FOH and a Ehrlund EAP back to the amp. Just my taKe. Unless the Sound Tech's are wizzards that's what I do.



Ric

 

[JKayLM1938]

I ALWAYS use a bass amp behind me as my bass monitor. Small to medium gigs I use it to fill the whole room without going through the PA, and at medium to bigger gigs it's still my stage monitor and I go through the PA for the audience to hear. On big festival stages, on rare occasions I've asked for a bit of my upright bass in my floor wedge monitor, but I'll place that monitor angled at me from my front/right, so it's on the other side of my body from my bass. If you point your amplified upright bass directly at your monitor or your bass amp, it acts just like pointing a microphone directly at a speaker.... feedback central.

Floor monitors are rarely voiced optimally for bass. That's why I always use my amp that gets the sound I love. I always know how my stage volume and tone will be, no matter what venue I play, what PA I go through, or who is running the sound.

If you use in ear monitors instead of floor wedges, then I would think going ampless onstage could be alright.

I'd suggest using an amp, and digging in prettyhard so you're projecting a good amount of volume before you amplify it. The louder you get the bass to sound acoustically, the less you'll have to turn it up in your monitor/amp, the less feedback you'll get.

GOT IT! Now the big question...
What kind of amp for slapping and rockabilly? We don't have a drummer, so I tend to be as percussive as possible. I have a Kay 1938 with a bridge and fingerboard pickups. I would want an amp that can get the mid-range for the "clicks" but then capture the old-school bass sound...

 

[JKayLM1938]

I used a Fishman Pro Platinum for a while. I still have it in my bag as a backup. The Fishman Pro Platinum has a high pass filter that a three settings. Low, Medium, High? Cannot remember the corresponding frequency cutoff. It was adequate most of the time but sometimes I dealt with feedback, both when using my amp or when going to the house PA. Since getting a head with a variable high pass filter this issue has been totally eliminated. I can fine tune the frequency of the filter to avoid feedback, and it seems to vary depending on the room, ceiling height, what the floor of the stage is like, placement of monitors, placement of main speakers, etc.

What kind of Amp do you recommend?

 

[wilsonn]

What kind of Amp do you recommend?

I now use an Acoustic Image Focus Series I. There always seem to be an Acoustic Image coming up for sale here. They have an easy to use variable HPF. But there are lots of heads that now offer this. And some preamp/buffers like the Headway.

 

[damonsmith]

You should use an amp for onstage sound and keep the bass out of the stage monitors.

Pretty much. If it is really good sound system, a mic on the bass and your amp is great. There is a place in Austin called the North Door and they both a great system and great sound person. I could give her a DI from my amp and she made a great sound.

Generally, if you haven't built up trust a mic on the bass or amp is as far as you should go. A DI with a sound person you don't know and know well is like saying **** it.

Also, a DI from the amp is the most I'll give, never from the pick up. Same rules apply for recording.