Double Bass Why doesn't just the house PA work for stand up bass?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Lately, I've been using the same amp I always use for gigs with no sound system as an onstage monitor, then sending a post-EQ DI from the back of it to the house for the FOH folks to work with. This works beautifully for all but outdoor festival stages. The onstage sound is under my control, and the house sound is as under my control as it can be. Whether the other players want bass in their monitors is up to them, but I don't need any bass in mine because I'm sitting right next to it.

 

[birgebass]

I use a Genz Benz shuttle with the 10 inch speaker. The only time I have had difficult feedback issues was in a room that had subs underneath the stage. The sound guy was less than accomodating, however I believe he could have fixed the issue if he wanted to. Part of being heard in situations like these comes a lot from your particular setup. I switched back to all steel strings recently, and I can hear myself much better, even at lower amped volumes.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

As a point of reference, I played three days as an opener at a 500 seat venue in SF recently. The stage had 6 subs across the front underneath. The headliner used 'em all. He was playing a 6 string EBG with drums and keys and it was LOUD!!!!
For our opening set I was using the Troll ribbon mic straight into the system, no amp. On one of the days I even had a small guitar amp literally 2 feet behind my bass. All this is to say that the FOH and Monitor techs were amazing! My bass sounded huge both in the monitors and in the house and not a hint of feedback. Because I know where the nulls are on the Troll, I was able to situate the wedge exactly where I wanted it and ultimately had to ask for less volume... they were very willing and able to give us a much hotter stage mix. These guys really knew how to EQ for acoustic instruments and even though they had an epic modern sound system, they never once tried to force our more acoustic sound into EDM land. We just had crystal clear, loud acoustic goodness.
My point is knowing what your gear can do and how to optimize your set-up is a vital and essential skill to have if you're playing in these situations. At best you'll always sound great and you'll make it easy for a good sound tech... plus you'll be much more likely to able to work around a really sucky one...

 

[JKayLM1938]

I now use an Acoustic Image Focus Series I. There always seem to be an Acoustic Image coming up for sale here. They have an easy to use variable HPF. But there are lots of heads that now offer this. And some preamp/buffers like the Headway.

As a point of reference, I played three days as an opener at a 500 seat venue in SF recently. The stage had 6 subs across the front underneath. The headliner used 'em all. He was playing a 6 string EBG with drums and keys and it was LOUD!!!!
For our opening set I was using the Troll ribbon mic straight into the system, no amp. On one of the days I even had a small guitar amp literally 2 feet behind my bass. All this is to say that the FOH and Monitor techs were amazing! My bass sounded huge both in the monitors and in the house and not a hint of feedback. Because I know where the nulls are on the Troll, I was able to situate the wedge exactly where I wanted it and ultimately had to ask for less volume... they were very willing and able to give us a much hotter stage mix. These guys really knew how to EQ for acoustic instruments and even though they had an epic modern sound system, they never once tried to force our more acoustic sound into EDM land. We just had crystal clear, loud acoustic goodness.
My point is knowing what your gear can do and how to optimize your set-up is a vital and essential skill to have if you're playing in these situations. At best you'll always sound great and you'll make it easy for a good sound tech... plus you'll be much more likely to able to work around a really sucky one...

That mic seems great! Any recommendation on a bass amp setup? We are playing places with less than 200 folks...

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Do you have a drummer? Ultimately I wasn't able to use the Troll consistently with a drummer and/or loud guitar amps. It wants a relatively low stage volume or it will howl. That said, I've had good luck running it through an AI Clarus (for the xlr/phantom power input) and any number of cabinets (Wizzy 12, MAS45, Mesa Boogie 115.) I'll second the notion that getting your speaker up will help. For quite a while I was running it through a powered speaker up on a speaker stand. The only drawback is if everyone is expecting a more modern low end push, that's usually only possible with a cabinet on the floor.

My suggestion would be to start with a 210 or a single 12. If you're happy with the Fishman for a pre, the amp doesn't matter as much and any 300-500 watt head should work fine. The GK combos are nice and I've found they have a pretty forgiving EQ set but really if you're using a full range preamp in front any combo should work; Markbass, Fender Rumble, Traynor, etc.

 

[Carl Hillman]

1) For a live gig with ~150 people, do you always need a cabinet?

Not necessarily.

Why doesn't the house PA work?

It can, but your sound and stage volume are at the total mercy of the sound technician.

2) When you do have a cabinet on the stage, should the PA mix allow for the bass in the room to come from the cabinet or the PA?

Most sound guys want as little stage volume as possible, so that they can shape the mix the way they want it to sound.

Does the cabinet act as a pre-amp and a monitor only?

That depends on the size of the room and how loud you are.

3) Why doesn't his cabinet create feedback when it is behind the bass, just like the monitor causes feedback in my cabinet-free setup?

It is likely that he has EQed his sound to minimize feedback. There are other factors involved though. He has control of his volume also.

The default for many sound guys seems to be "bass in the all the floor wedges...LOUD". This is frequently a problem because A) the sound you hear coming from the monitors usually sucks and B) loud floor monitors tend to resonate the stage (if it's not a solid stage). Those frequencies are traveling up your endpin and into your bass. The sound waves coming out of drivers in a speaker cabinet are initially propagated parallel to the stage and are less likely to start the stage vibrating sympathetically.

My default is always to bring an amp, and my starting point during a sound check is: take my signal after my preamp and keep me out of the stage monitors

 

[james condino]

First you get a big upright bass and think you can do anything and then after a couple of gigs with a borrowed kick drum mic stuffed randomly around the bridge you get a pickup and go into the house system and then you get a preamp / di then you get an a$$ soundguy and it sounds the worst ever and then you get a small amp for you and the band onstage and then the soundguy turns you off from ALL the monitors and the mains and then you get a BIG amp and a couple of BIG cabinets so you can tell the soundguy to piss off you've got the whole room covered and then you change venues and the sound guy is cool and a bass player and tells you not to bring anything and he lets you use his hip new pickup and di system and you own the place and then you go to another club and it sounds like a$$ on day one again......

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com

 

[SLO Surfer]

GOT IT! Now the big question...
What kind of amp for slapping and rockabilly? We don't have a drummer, so I tend to be as percussive as possible. I have a Kay 1938 with a bridge and fingerboard pickups. I would want an amp that can get the mid-range for the "clicks" but then capture the old-school bass sound...

For smaller gigs I use a little GK MB150S combo amp, and for bigger gigs I USED to add a SWR 1X15 cab to that combo amp. It got plenty loud to hang with a screaming big band and no PA support. That little combo is freaking awesome for upright! (Not so great for electric bass) Now I just use the MB150S by itself for smaller gigs. (There's one of these amps for sale on the Talk Bass classifieds right now for a steal)

Now I use my electric bass rig with great results for medium to big gigs, it's a GK MB Fusion 800 through a Schroeder neo 1210L cab, which houses a 10", a 12" and tweeter in it.

I use a pedal tuner (for muting capabilities) and a SansAmp BDDI as a DI for big gigs, otherwise I use the DI out on both my GK's.

For rockabilly I've heard the Aguilar tone hammer amps work well.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Unless you are playing in some professional level joints, with great sound systems, and sound people who know their stuff - just DI'ing ain't gonna cut it with upright bass.

The two big issues are being able to hear yourself, and dealing with feedback. I rarely hear myself clearly enough through monitors to use them as a reference for intonation. In addition to just being able to hear yourself, you'll never have a consistent tone from system to system if you are just DI'ing. The tone/dynamics you get from the monitor are left to the discretion of the board. At least if you run your own bass rig on stage, you'll always be able to dial in something familiar. You'll also have a volume knob that doesn't affect the house sound.

I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on taming feedback. With my current rig I rarely if ever experience that. I consider myself lucky.

An onstage rig will give much more control over what you hear, and give you less reliance on the PA. It'll make your haul worse, but for most people it's worth it. One of the more confusing things about these preamps/DI's is that they all insist you can ditch the amp and sound great. Who wants to carry a bass cabinet if they don't have to right! In a professional environment that may be true. However for those of us playing on rock PA's in dive bars, it's not practical.

 

[damonsmith]

Also, the first question is: can the band play together in real time? Are you depending on a PA to balance things because of bad group dynamics?
If you can get a sound in a small room or rehearsal space that works, that is the first step. If you use a PA to amplify an already balanced sound you are going to be far better off.

 

[sean_on_bass]

If you are playing loud rockabilly, i am thinking that a nice size amp and feedback resistant pickup are a must. A mic is likely not a good option in that setting, as feedback will be much worse. Do some research to find a nice combo amp that others folks have good experience with for rockabilly. Also make sure you have a pickup that is not sensitive to feedback. I also wouldn't rule out a preamp more geared toward electric bass like a Sansamp.

But i dont know much about rockabilly. You did see a bass player successfully do what you want to do, so ask him what he is using to make it happen for examples of what to buy.

 

[Pat Harris]

I've gotten used to "playing in the dark," sonically speaking. Good monitoring of bass, particularly upright bass, is a tough order in many clubs. As such, I keep my stage volume to an absolute minimum, and listen more to the house PA and room more than any monitors for what I need. There are times when you can have your cake and eat it too, but as a working musician playing in all kinds of rooms with all kinds of systems, here are a few things that I find to be true about 95% of the time in club gigs with a house PA and dedicated engineer:

1. You have to give FOH the best possible signal. That means owning your own DI, and pre-EQing it for your specific instrument so that the FOH engineer can slot it into the room mix.

2a. Most stage monitors, with the exception of a drum monitor, have a high pass filter on them rolling out frequencies below 100Hz and possibly higher. They can be good for pitch recognition, but awful for providing you with punch in your tone. They're often too loud, and blasting a lot of midrange frequencies into the top of your bass is a recipe for feedback. For a club of ~150, I can't really see any reason why you would need anything other than vocals in the wedges. Any other stage monitoring should be handled by the band, IMO.
2b. Most stage monitors are rung out, and have ONE EQ applied to all across the board. Any changes made for one musician affects everyone else.

3a. You can have great/loud/comfortable sound on stage, and this requires you to bring an amp big enough to compete with the FOH PA.
3b. Bringing an amp/speaker big enough to compete with the FOH PA typically means that you hold the FOH engineer hostage. They can't slot you where you need to go.
3c. Many times, what feels good sonically from a players perspective isn't what is needed 20 or more feet out into the house.

 

[james condino]

I like the stage volume LOUD so the rest of the band and the hipster girls in front are bumpin' and grindin'; that's how I measure if I'm doing my job correct. A polite bass sound is not something I'm interested in and polite sound with a rockabily band will result in a new bass player getting the gig soon....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I like the stage volume LOUD so the rest of the band and the hipster girls in front are bumpin' and grindin'; that's how I measure if I'm doing my job correct. A polite bass sound is not something I'm interested in and polite sound with a rockabily band will result in a new bass player getting the gig soon....

We prolly shouldn't be on each others' sub list

 

[MR PC]

In my experience it depends entirely on who is running sound.

Yup.

 

[JKayLM1938]

So, here is what I have so far:

1) For a live gig with ~150 people, do you always need a cabinet? Why doesn't the house PA work?
Typically, yes you need a cabinet. House PA and engineers aren't as concerned about tone, so send them the best signal you can from your stage rig.

2) When you do have a cabinet on the stage, should the PA mix allow for the bass in the room to come from the cabinet or the PA? Does the cabinet act as a pre-amp and a monitor only?
In general, this depends on the venue.

3) Why doesn't his cabinet create feedback when it is behind the bass, just like the monitor causes feedback in my cabinet-free setup?
Cabinet behind is better than the monitor on the floor.

YOU GUYS ARE GREAT THANKS FOR THE INFO!

 

[shwashwa]

The monitors are on the floor pointing up at us.

The band that followed us, he has his cabinet right behind him, I thought for sure there would be feedback, but none...

Still, I am wondering why?

its the monitors

 

[JKayLM1938]

I am now on the hunt for a good stage monitor...

 

[neddyrow]

most places i prefer to have my amp as for most reasons mentioned above. also, being the bass and "drums" of our bluegrass band. the rest of the band likes to have my amp cabinet in the back of the stage so they can have that "backing them up" it's also great because i am not muddying up the monitor mix. the vocals and other instruments sound much clearer this way. plus your bass cabinet is voiced for your bass...usually sounds better than the monitors anyway.

i played a great venue nearby that was known for an awesome house PA. i didn't bother to bring my amp because i figured the monitors would be plentiful and i could get a great sound. well, the sound guys were new and used to rock bands....you know the rest. thank goodness for my hpf/lpf/DI. was able to dial in a decent tone despite the sound guys "help"

 

[JKayLM1938]

most places i prefer to have my amp as for most reasons mentioned above. also, being the bass and "drums" of our bluegrass band. the rest of the band likes to have my amp cabinet in the back of the stage so they can have that "backing them up" it's also great because i am not muddying up the monitor mix. the vocals and other instruments sound much clearer this way. plus your bass cabinet is voiced for your bass...usually sounds better than the monitors anyway.

i played a great venue nearby that was known for an awesome house PA. i didn't bother to bring my amp because i figured the monitors would be plentiful and i could get a great sound. well, the sound guys were new and used to rock bands....you know the rest. thank goodness for my hpf/lpf/DI. was able to dial in a decent tone despite the sound guys "help"

I have a Kay 1938, and I am trying to get an amp that will do just as you mention - be the bass and the drums for the band. I need the clicking to be loud, but not too loud. I am thinking that the compressor on my Fishman will help with that, along with a good amp. I have pickups on the bridge and under the fingerboard. Any suggestions?