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Why don't bands have their own sound engineers?

Why don't bands have their "own" sound person?

  • They do their own sound.

    Votes: 40 26.5%

  • They don't need one as the venue always has someone.

    Votes: 29 19.2%

  • There's no-one available.

    Votes: 12 7.9%

  • They're too expensive.

    Votes: 93 61.6%

  • They're all incompetent.

    Votes: 18 11.9%
  • Total voters
    151
T

T-Bird

Apr 29, 2007
8,850
268
Finland (Northern Europe)
#1
Hi all.

Even though the new rule against bashing us soundpersons/double duty musicians, the issue comes up on a daily basis.

Perhaps it's not as bad as it used to in here, but somehow I get the feeling that the soundperson is more evil than the promoter and/or manager who's there only to take a major cut of the bands hard earned income.


I simply don't get it. Especially nowadays as decent quality gear is dirt cheap.

Why won't those people (bands) who whine and moan about how incompetent the sound person is, hire their own. Or better yet, count them as one of the band members, with an equal cut obviously.


I do realize that the majority of the gigs are handled with the venues PA system, and us sound engineers tend to be quite picky about who can and can not touch our gear. We didn't let anyone we didn't know touch our stuff, that's for sure.

Fortunately most of the people in the business did know eachother and the ones we didn't know came in a bit early to familiarize themselves with the system. And vice versa obviously when we went to a new location. There was no problems, ever. And we are talking about time before the sound engineer courses and schools, everyone was part self taught, part taught by the more experienced engineers.

Most of the bands I know of have their own sound person, and have had them from the beginning of their career.

One obvious problem is the pay, or more precisely the lack of it. No competent sound-person I know, will set-up, mix and tear down for the pay they'd play the same gig (most of them are musicians). If You want me to do Your sound with my equipment for example, it'll cost a wee bit more than if I came with the band doing 3*45. Not much, but still.

Hired hands (regardless of the instrument) are obviously at the mercy of the venue/promoter/band, whichever makes the decisions, no way around that. And if the back-line is restricted as well, it'll get very interesting if professionalism is forgotten.

A whole different ballgame is the bar bands who do their own mixing from the stage, like the band I'm on now. While a setup like that has its undisputed benefits, it still restricts the person who handles the board (usually the bass player for some reason ;)).

I added a bit of a poll about the reasons for the lack of a familiar soundperson, in case anyone cares to express their opinions fast ;).

Regards
Sam
 
#2
No answer works for me. I worked with the same engineer in 3 different bands over the course of 15+years. He was a friend, partner, and a person who knew exactly how we wanted the end result to be. It's not cheap to find somebody great, but once you get that team mate, you'll wonder how you did without him/her.
 
#3
T-Bird said:
...somehow I get the feeling that the soundperson is more evil than the promoter and/or manager who's there only to take a major cut of the bands hard earned income.


Why won't those people (bands) who whine and moan about how incompetent the sound person is, hire their own. Or better yet, count them as one of the band members, with an equal cut obviously.
Click to expand...


No, "bad" soundmen aren't more evil than "bad" promoters/managers; they are all in the same boat. :smug: :D

As for counting the engineer as one of the "group"; in the early days of Rollins Band, they did just that, and listed listed their soundman as a band member. IMO, just seems logical for any band that really cares about having a good and consistent mix and has the ability to have their own S.S.

But, the problem with that solution is that the venue must be receptive, or have the space, for an additional sound system; as well as the band must be able to haul all the gear.

Also, even if a band did hire a soundman, would the venue allow them to utilize the house system, if the band didn't have one of their own?
 
#4
My band owns our own PA. Depending on the gig we mix from stage or will pay a soundman to mix for us. When we get crowds of more than 500 we hire a sound company to provide adequate PA and some one to run it.
 
#5
I voted for the band does it's own sound.

All the cover/bar bands that I play with have always brought their own PA equipment. I have all my own PA equipment and most of the guys that I've played with have their own as well. Which is actually nice because we'll divide up the duties as to who brings what to the gig. I one power trio I was in it was: I brought the FOH Speakers (JBL Eons), Guitarist brought the Main PA AMP and Monitor Amp, Drummer brought the Monitor Speakers. Worked out very well. Similar types of situations with other bands I've played with. Also some times it's the "leader" who brings all the stuff and I just come with my amp. But 8/10 times the band is doing it's own sound.

There is a more high profile band that I work with and typically the sound is provided. We have no say in the matter, the manager takes care of it all. Either he provides the sound and soundman (he owns a large sound company) or what ever venue we play at provides the sound and sound man (Don't know what the guy gets paid. That's not my dept. on gigs like that. I just play and get my cut. No questions asked). I've never really had any issues with sound guys along the way. All the guys I've had the pleasure of working with were very professional. Most of them had some type of degree in sound engineering. Maybe I've just been lucky to have not run into any incompetent guys.
 
#6
I don't think the answers work for me, either. I am an audio tech by trade and what I see more often than not is that bands simply overlook that position. They do not see it as important. It seems to be an afterthought until it comes time for the gig and then they complain about the guy who has never heard them before not being perfect for their every need. Would you expect a guitarist that has never heard your material to step in at gig time and hit everything perfect? ;)

I really do not know why it is so overlooked. The sound man is the one who is conveying the sound of your band to those who came to hear you.

So, my answer would be that they have simply overlooked that position with the band.
 
#7
We own our own P.A. and do our own sound from the stage... but if you want to know WHY we do that it's cause the majority of the band -- contrary to my preference -- doesn't want to split the pay out one more way. If I had my way we'd have a guy out front taking care of sound and lights but that hasn't been the majority opinion so we're a DIY band.
 
#8
jaywa said:
We own our own P.A. and do our own sound from the stage... but if you want to know WHY we do that it's cause the majority of the band -- contrary to my preference -- doesn't want to split the pay out one more way. If I had my way we'd have a guy out front taking care of sound and lights but that hasn't been the majority opinion so we're a DIY band.
Click to expand...

Ditto.

I'd love to have a keyboard player for 4-5 songs out of a 4 hour set, but that doesn't warrant giving some left handed heavy doofus an equal cut just for those songs, then have to tolerate him the other 3 1/2 hours of the night. Some goes for a sound man.

I own a small powerful QSC K-series PA with subwoofer and am wireless... I can run things fine for the places we play.

.
 
#13
JohnDavisNYC said:
i've never seen a club refuse to allow an outside engineer to run the pa... usually the engineers just have to chat and it's pretty clear if someone if actually an engineer or someone's buddy who thinks the vocals need to be louder.

john
Click to expand...

Well you must live in Wonderland then, because most small clubs here won't let anyone else TOUCH their equipment, chat or no chat.
 
#14
4lPh4n0m3g4 said:
But, the problem with that solution is that the venue must be receptive, or have the space, for an additional sound system; as well as the band must be able to haul all the gear.

Also, even if a band did hire a soundman, would the venue allow them to utilize the house system, if the band didn't have one of their own?
Click to expand...

EXACTLY! The good venues we play at have house sound systems installed and the soundguy is already there. To bring in a completely different system is crazy. Most of the time you can't bring your own guy to use someone else's gear - it's a huge investment and would cause a lot of trouble for the bars we play at. On the flip side, the places we play with random soundguys - the venue/bar is not worth our time to pay $350 to $500 for a soundguy/PA system. When you are only getting paid $1000 for 5 guys, 10% booking fee, and soundguy, well...your earnings go fast. It just does not work out at all.
 
#16
Always best to have your own guy!
Even better if he has his own gear and truck!

We always told our guy "You make us sound better than we are!"
Had a sticker on his outboard "I'm not deaf - I'm ignoring you!" for ppl coming up offering "advice"

We also had a backup guy who was very good in case #1 was pre-booked.

We had our own gear as well, but it was a drag hauling it up from the basement and then having to put it back in the wee hours.
Always brought our own lights and had a guy run those.
 
#18
Hi.

Thanks for the replies, appreciated.

The reason I brought this up, must be obvious to the majority of the viewers, as the replies have mainly come from those who has taken care of the problem :).

What I really don't get is the several posts in here and on other threads that deals with the FOH issues is that the sound engineers/venues don't allow outside sound engineers to work there.

Of course it can be an insurance issue, union issue or just simply a company policy, but it really makes no sense. A degree or not, a competent sound-person who knows the bands material, is essential to the success of the performance.

The competence of the sound person is obviously an issue that's not easily resolved, I do agree (as I stated in the op), that not just anyone is allowed to run some other persons gear. But we never refused to any bands request to have their own sound engineer to do the mixing, either by themselves, or in our supervision (the multi-band/20min slots gigs an exception of course).

Please keep the good stuff coming, especially those who continuously complain about bad engineers ;).


Regards
Sam
 
#20
In the last professional outfit I played with there were four performers and two support staff. The support staff consisted of a full time sound man and an equipment manager/bodyguard. Each musician received one share and the support guys split a share. Ten percent was taken off the top for traveling expenses, telephone, vehicle, equipment upkeep, etc.
 

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