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Why DON'T you play a short-scale?

1. You can intonate a Gibson bridge these days. Really, it's not hard if you've got the motor skills necessary to turn a screwdriver. I seem to remember Leo's original bridge designs being flawed. A thousand pardons if the first electric bass designs weren't absolutely perfect.

Yep, took Gibson many years to figure it out. They've been playing catch-up to Fender since Day 1. The first Fender bridges worked well enough, but were quickly improved upon, and not by copying someone else's design.

No need to apologise on behalf of Fender (as if you actually could). Besides, you're not expected to know everything. No one has all the answers.

2. No one's saying short scales are "better." There's no inherent advantage or disadvantage to playing a short scale over a long scale or vice versa. Some of us just enjoy using them in addition to long scales.

Of course they are. Did you read the very first post?

"Seems weird to limit yourself by playing a more difficult size unless you really need to. Sure, there is a difference in sound, but for most purposes nothing you can't fix with the right amp settings. What am I missing?"

3. Believe it or not, 34" is not the end-all, be-all of scales. There's lots of basses made in lots of scales. 28.6", 30", 32", 33.25", 35", 36", 38", and 34". They all seem to intonate and work pretty well.

Everyone here already knows about the different scale length basses that are available, even the obscure ones you mention. But there are not "a lot" of them...there are "some".

In truth, the common scale lengths are 34", 35", and 30". The most common, by far, is 34". You can try to spin it, but these are the facts.
 
2. No one's saying short scales are "better."

Of course they are. Did you read the very first post?

'better' / 'worse' / 'different' here is a just a personal choice. The 'position' in the OP is obviously only one of many you might take. But I was interested in the reasons why people have made the choices they have (or if they have just not given scale length much thought).
 
And don't forget 20"! (Kala U-bass). Actually its very easy to transition to a U-bass, even the fretless version. Don't want to open up a can of worms here, but when I play my Thunderbird or Longhorn at a gig no one pays much attention. When I put it down and grab the U-bass and start playing everyone notices. I have people coming up all the time telling me how great it sounds compared to the others! But its not the sound you would want for every song. Its sounds kind of like a cross between a precision and an upright.
 
Some of the counterpoints that are being made to my statements seem to ignore rationale or history. I'm not really sure what the main argument I am trying to defend here as the statements and rebuttals become more knee-jerk and less rooted in maturity - Really guys, I don't have a secret agenda to wipe short scale basses off the planet, I love all basses, and I'm sure there are a few SS that are a joy to play. But the argument that the majority of us would somehow benefit by 'coming around' to seeing the virtues of the short scale is utterly ridiculous. For a final visit I am going to go through the thread and debunk/clarify. I won't just pick on the OP, anything I see in here that is wrong that could lead to help supporting arguments with false statements.

I am surprised to hear people say that they feel cramped on a 30" bass. I don't think a competent player (who isn't a giant) should feel cramped on a 30, or a u-bass for that matter - or feel stretched on a 35 (or a 42" upright) - you should be able to adapt your technique to anything, within reason. But I'm still not really seeing why the majority of non-giant people wouldn't be able to cover more musical ground on the 30 scale than a 34. One thing I have found with my current shorty though is that it's not so forgiving of poor slap tecchnique (though it could be the flats..?)

This one above might take the cake. You don't THINK a competent player should feel uncomfortable on a 30" ?? Do you THINK said player might not like Peas or Lima Beans? Dude, there are tons of professional & famous players who hate small basses (I'm not one of them). The only reason they might be less competent is because you are not going to play as well when you hate your instrument. And when you say cover more "musical ground' on a 30 as opposed to a 34 ---- What does that even mean ??, a completely unsubstantiated statement that makes no sense at all and if anything the opposite is true. As if I should be able to cover more musical ground on a fretless stratocaster because the frets won't be in the way ...absurd. Absolute muckery, junk music science bordering on something you might expect to hear out of a politician.


34 is the standard because after some rudimentary experiments with various scales Leo Fender decided 34 felt right for the bass guitar he was inventing. Because fender dominated the market, so did his chosen scale length. His was the one to copy.

This one above isnt so bad but just to set the record straight, Fender did not dominate the market, it was wide open with regard to the electric Bass. Uncharted territory really. And yep Leo was the one to copy, but nobody did, not for awhile. Gibson, Hofner, and many others tried to compete with Leo by making short scale basses. You saw what happened there right? They flopped, they didn't fit the players and they sounded inferior, and scale was a huge factor. It was a decade a later until anything else became successful/palatable for players (Rickenbacker 4000 33.5" - 1958 Gibson Thunderbird 34" 1963). The first strong contenders.

The reason was that there was no amplification available. There is now.
This statement just shows ignorance regarding the topic. I am not saying you are an ignorant person, but I am saying that thinking that amplification has anything to do with the scale length of electric basses, even in 1951, is just out there. You guessed, and were wrong. Amplification was not going to have any impact on Fender's decision as to which scale he eventually wound up with. As a matter of fact, he was working with 30" and 32" scales extensively. The problem? He was unable to get suitable articulation, richness, and resonance from the notes. It didn't SOUND good or at least it didn't sound good enough. He knew that was not going to fly with a very unpredictable and discerning market to please. He also knew that if he didnt get it right, there were going to be several other makers at his heels. They got much better sound when trying out some longer scales like 36". The problem with 36" was that this instrument was going to be fretted and the spacing of frets was too far at the top. Too much potential stretch for the average hand, so they arrived at 34. Process of elimination, its not super high tech but its perfectly logical and suitable science. Need references? There are many, page 12 of Illustrated History of Bass Guitars, Bacon Moorhouse 1995 is one place to start with.

Yeah I've heard of a P-bass before. So, even if you were right, all you've proved is that the 34" might have been better in 1951.
A thousand dead bass players just turned in their graves. This is truly another statement that is just like "Whaaat??. I'm sorry and this next observation is usually not in my normal way of debating, but are you 12? I'm all for young folks playing music, but a little reverence to the past will actually make you a more rounded player. Given that the P-Bass, virtually unchanged in 60 years and still being wielded by some of music's best musicians does prove that the formula worked in 1951 and it works now. If Leo would have opted for the 30 or 32 scale his bass venture would have likely flopped. And today, the 34" would still be dominant, its just that we would be remembering Rickenbacker or some other company as the Bass pioneer.

From the entire reading if any single statement should be referenced, one that I would want to get across, it is this: "He was working with 30" and 32" scales extensively. The problem? He was unable to get suitable articulation, richness, and resonance from the notes. It didn't SOUND good or at least it didn't sound good enough." - considering all other parameters of bass guitars being equal, there is nothing that has changed from a length of steel string that contacts a nut at one end and a bridge saddle at the other. And a longer scale length produces a better sound than a shorter one. I am certain there are some short scales that sound better than some standard or longs scales, but I assure you that it would have nothing to do with the scale length.
 
I switched from guitar to bass in 1969. My first bass was a 62 Carvin...24" scale. I also got a short scale Decca that I turned into a fretless. I've had a quite a few short scales...Mustang, Kramer Duke, Danelectro, etc. But I much prefer 34 or 35" scale. I have pretty small hands for a 6' guy.

I do have one acoustic 5 string bass that is 32" scale, and it's got a really decent low B. Who knew?

I use roundwounds and like clarity and focus. I wasn't crazy about the E and A on my short scales. I tried Rotosound roundwounds on my Kramer Duke, but the low E was just dead and muddy. I mentioned it to the Rotosound reps at NAMM in 1983 and they gave me two sets of short scale roundwounds. Both had the dead E strings.

I've had 24", 30", 31", 32", 33.5" 34" and 35". I'll stick with 34 or 35. I have no problems with either.
 
Yep, took Gibson many years to figure it out. They've been playing catch-up to Fender since Day 1. The first Fender bridges worked well enough, but were quickly improved upon, and not by copying someone else's design.

No need to apologise on behalf of Fender (as if you actually could). Besides, you're not expected to know everything. No one has all the answers.



Of course they are. Did you read the very first post?





Everyone here already knows about the different scale length basses that are available, even the obscure ones you mention. But there are not "a lot" of them...there are "some".

In truth, the common scale lengths are 34", 35", and 30". The most common, by far, is 34". You can try to spin it, but these are the facts.

You know what? This is pointless when you've already made up your mind and aren't open to any possibilities. Continue your with your butthurt. I'll continue playing my EB Thunder.
 
You know what? This is pointless when you've already made up your mind and aren't open to any possibilities. Continue your with your butthurt. I'll continue playing my EB Thunder.

Heh, nonsense. I'm always open to NEW possibilities. But I've already been to the rodeo you're trying to preach about. Decades ago, laddie.

"Butthurt"....seems to be the new catch-phrase people use in defense of their non-sensical blatherings when they come under the slightest scrutiny. Comical.

This could go in the "Things I learned on Talkbass" thread;

"Whoever disagrees with anyone else, and explains exactly why they disagree, must be suffereing from a severe case of 'Butthurt'". lol
 
What do Paul McCartney (Beatles), Jack Bruce (Cream), Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones), Glenn Cornick (Jethro Tull), Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads), Stanley Clark, Jonas Hellborg and many other world class bassist's have in common during their formative years? They all played short scale (30") or medium scale (32") basses - as opposed to the more conventional long scale (34").

Many of them didn't even worship at Temple Fender.

Imagine that!

Nuff said.
 
What do Paul McCartney (Beatles), Jack Bruce (Cream), Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones), Glenn Cornick (Jethro Tull), Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads), Stanley Clark, Jonas Hellborg and many other world class bassist's have in common during their formative years? They all played short scale (30") or medium scale (32") basses - as opposed to the more conventional long scale (34").

What do Anthony Jackson, Nathan East, John Patitucci, James Genus, Tom Kennedy, and many other world class bassists have in common? They all play 35" and 36" scales.

'Nuff said.
 
I'm not really sure what the main argument I am trying to defend here .

Because there is no 'argument' - just personal reasons for making personal choices.

And when you say cover more "musical ground' on a 30 as opposed to a 34 ---- What does that even mean ??, a completely unsubstantiated statement that makes no sense at all and if anything the opposite is true. As if I should be able to cover more musical ground on a fretless stratocaster because the frets won't be in the way ...absurd. Absolute muckery, junk music science bordering on something you might expect to hear out of a politician. .

I said 'I'm still not really seeing why the majority of non-giant people wouldn't be able to cover more musical ground on the 30 scale than a 34.' Again, this is still speaking about things that are subjective, hence the use of a means-what-it-means-to-you term like 'musical ground'.

I am saying that thinking that amplification has anything to do with the scale length of electric basses, even in 1951, is just out there. .

I said that lack of amplification has a lot to do with the scale length (and overall size) of ACOUSTIC (i.e. upright) basses, in reply to your point about 'Our basses are descendants of double basses'...:rolleyes:
 
What do Paul McCartney (Beatles), Jack Bruce (Cream), Bill Wyman (Rolling Stones), Glenn Cornick (Jethro Tull), Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads), Stanley Clark, Jonas Hellborg and many other world class bassist's have in common during their formative years? They all played short scale (30") or medium scale (32") basses - as opposed to the more conventional long scale (34").

Yep, that about covers it. But don't forget Felix Pappalardi. I remember seeing Mountain back in the day. Big, wide Leslie West looked comical playing his little Gibson guitar (cant remember if it was a LP Jr or a Melodymaker).


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Some of the counterpoints that are being made to my statements seem to ignore rationale or history. I'm not really sure what the main argument I am trying to defend here as the statements and rebuttals become more knee-jerk and less rooted in maturity - Really guys, I don't have a secret agenda to wipe short scale basses off the planet, I love all basses, and I'm sure there are a few SS that are a joy to play. But the argument that the majority of us would somehow benefit by 'coming around' to seeing the virtues of the short scale is utterly ridiculous. For a final visit I am going to go through the thread and debunk/clarify. I won't just pick on the OP, anything I see in here that is wrong that could lead to help supporting arguments with false statements.



This one above might take the cake. You don't THINK a competent player should feel uncomfortable on a 30" ?? Do you THINK said player might not like Peas or Lima Beans? Dude, there are tons of professional & famous players who hate small basses (I'm not one of them). The only reason they might be less competent is because you are not going to play as well when you hate your instrument. And when you say cover more "musical ground' on a 30 as opposed to a 34 ---- What does that even mean ??, a completely unsubstantiated statement that makes no sense at all and if anything the opposite is true. As if I should be able to cover more musical ground on a fretless stratocaster because the frets won't be in the way ...absurd. Absolute muckery, junk music science bordering on something you might expect to hear out of a politician.




This one above isnt so bad but just to set the record straight, Fender did not dominate the market, it was wide open with regard to the electric Bass. Uncharted territory really. And yep Leo was the one to copy, but nobody did, not for awhile. Gibson, Hofner, and many others tried to compete with Leo by making short scale basses. You saw what happened there right? They flopped, they didn't fit the players and they sounded inferior, and scale was a huge factor. It was a decade a later until anything else became successful/palatable for players (Rickenbacker 4000 33.5" - 1958 Gibson Thunderbird 34" 1963). The first strong contenders.


This statement just shows ignorance regarding the topic. I am not saying you are an ignorant person, but I am saying that thinking that amplification has anything to do with the scale length of electric basses, even in 1951, is just out there. You guessed, and were wrong. Amplification was not going to have any impact on Fender's decision as to which scale he eventually wound up with. As a matter of fact, he was working with 30" and 32" scales extensively. The problem? He was unable to get suitable articulation, richness, and resonance from the notes. It didn't SOUND good or at least it didn't sound good enough. He knew that was not going to fly with a very unpredictable and discerning market to please. He also knew that if he didnt get it right, there were going to be several other makers at his heels. They got much better sound when trying out some longer scales like 36". The problem with 36" was that this instrument was going to be fretted and the spacing of frets was too far at the top. Too much potential stretch for the average hand, so they arrived at 34. Process of elimination, its not super high tech but its perfectly logical and suitable science. Need references? There are many, page 12 of Illustrated History of Bass Guitars, Bacon Moorhouse 1995 is one place to start with.


A thousand dead bass players just turned in their graves. This is truly another statement that is just like "Whaaat??. I'm sorry and this next observation is usually not in my normal way of debating, but are you 12? I'm all for young folks playing music, but a little reverence to the past will actually make you a more rounded player. Given that the P-Bass, virtually unchanged in 60 years and still being wielded by some of music's best musicians does prove that the formula worked in 1951 and it works now. If Leo would have opted for the 30 or 32 scale his bass venture would have likely flopped. And today, the 34" would still be dominant, its just that we would be remembering Rickenbacker or some other company as the Bass pioneer.

From the entire reading if any single statement should be referenced, one that I would want to get across, it is this: "He was working with 30" and 32" scales extensively. The problem? He was unable to get suitable articulation, richness, and resonance from the notes. It didn't SOUND good or at least it didn't sound good enough." - considering all other parameters of bass guitars being equal, there is nothing that has changed from a length of steel string that contacts a nut at one end and a bridge saddle at the other. And a longer scale length produces a better sound than a shorter one. I am certain there are some short scales that sound better than some standard or longs scales, but I assure you that it would have nothing to do with the scale length.

No I'm not 12. And you are not proving anything. There wasn't good amps in 1951 so scale length was more important. I don't buy into your argument that since the p-bass is unchanged that makes 34" better. There are plenty of 32" fenders around, esp in Japan that sound the same as their 34" brethern. You are not the final authority on scale length just because you checked a book out the library once.
 
I've had a few 32" scale instruments in the past, mainly my Kubicki basses that are worth noting. Awesome things, they were. Brilliant for slap and tap playing - something I do a lot less of these days but recently have been feeling like I should get back into it!

It's less about the scale length and more about the overall bass for me, though I daresay 34" scale is my preference for a 'normal' bass. The Kubicki design was very, very good in that the position of the bridge and the tensioning of the strings resulted in a bass that didn't feel alien to hands used to 34" and 35" scale lengths when I got them.
 
No I'm not 12. And you are not proving anything. There wasn't good amps in 1951 so scale length was more important. I don't buy into your argument that since the p-bass is unchanged that makes 34" better. There are plenty of 32" fenders around, esp in Japan that sound the same as their 34" brethern. You are not the final authority on scale length just because you checked a book out the library once.

This thread is becoming reminiscent of the twilight zone. The lack of knowledge here is stunning. The 'Tweed' line of amplification in the early 50's is a golden standard that many companies are still chasing to this very day. Plenty of experts will tell you that those hand wired amps still sound better than anything being put out today. Companies like Victoria go so far as to even making these brand new amps look like the ones from the 50s. British amp platforms like Vox and Marshall were derived from these amps as well.

Not only that but the original amps themselves are as important now as they have ever been with the advent of large in-house PA/sound and mic systems. Many top musicians are now able to use the amps they grew up on from the 50s right on stage. The players loved the way these amps sounded and are happy to keep them maintained so they can be used on stage. Even sound from a little 5w Fender Champ can now fill a concert hall. And they are doing it all the time.

Oh, and speaking about checking a book in a library once, I don't have to go very far. I am a music and instrument historian (I do appraisals). I have about $5000 invested in books, DVDs and other media of this nature, its a must.

The whole point about amplification is mute anyway, it has almost nothing to do with the topic in this thread.
 
Sometimes I play my Gibson SG Reissue short scale, and sometimes I play a Fender Mustang short scale. Depends on my mood and which band I'm playing with. In my blues trio I strictly use my Jazz, P or G&L. In my rock trio I use my Ric or one of my short scale. Just depends on the mood I'm in and how loud the gig will be. If it's a quieter gig, I'll take a smaller amp and a short scale.
 
After playing for 37+ years and playing 30,32,34 & 35" scale basses....I prefer playing 32" (medium) scale basses. Both my Alembic Persuader and new Dave Pushic custom basses are 32" scale. I just feels right to me!

Im sure this is a case where those basses have all the potential to sound better than most full scale production line models. The attention to detail and craftsmanship is what indeed could trump specs like scale length. I would happily play one of those and might have trouble letting go.
 
My go to bass is a 35" Lakland five string . . . my backup bass is a 34" Fender MIA Jazz . . . I've had a 32" Fender VM Telecaster bass for three weeks now.

The only thing I feel is, well, the obvious - a different size neck with each. They play the same, feel the same, and they sound like a bass.