Why have a nice rig just to be run direct? PART 2

[TheBass]

In case someone wanders in from Mars wondering why bass players are chatting about cab emulation as a substitute for mic'ing, here's 10c worth of summation:

Mic bad, DI good!

No! DI unrepresentative of tone, mic good!

No, mic not picking up what bass player hears, mic not flat response!

But mic sounds damn fine out front!

But mic may bounce on bouncy stage!

Cross that bridge when I come to it!

But mic still isn't flat!

Flat enough bud!

Here's how to spend 3 grand to make a processor mimic your rig...

Gee thanks, I just spent 2 grand on a rig and $100 on a sweet Akgp2 mic, can you run through the $500 emulation option in some more detail please?

Very educative summary, thanks
I just skip the part 'spending 2 grand on a rig' for myself and just spend 150 (Euros) for a good emulation.

 

[Downunderwonder]

You either know something that 53 pages never uncovered or you're full of it.

 

[NeonVomit]

I don't know if I've told this story before, I may have, but it really got me thinking about this whole DI v Rig discussion.

I recently was lucky enough to catch Paradise Lost, Lacuna Coil and Katatonia at the Roundhouse in Camden up in north London.

Katatonia were first. They all used IEM, played DI with emulators. Their sound was perfect. I mean, insanely crystal clear. Every note, beat, everything was perfect. They used playbacks for several tracks, and in many cases didn't even have a count-in, which means the playback click track was on in their IEMs. Although the sound was so perfect, something was missing, a certain je ne sais quois. If I closed my eyes and someone had put their cd in a player and played it through the PA, I honestly wouldn't have been able to tell the difference.

Lacuna Coil were on next, and they had a similar setup, except they did not all use IEMs, but ran through monitors as well. The bassist used a GK 2001RB and a NEO 412, he had a good sound. There was a bit more substance to the sound for sure, but still something wasn't quite right.

The je ne sais quois turned into an 'oh, right' when Paradise Lost came on. They used the traditional Marshall stacks and an Ampeg CL + 810 = the classic rock star setup for all concerned, in other words.

Their sound wasn't as crystal clear as Katatonia's, but you really felt the difference. The sound moved me, it became a physical manifestation of the show - it wasn't just 'sound' anymore, it was feeling. The music really becomes part of you.

Volume wise, it wasn't any louder than the previous bands - I was second row from the front and the sound level was very reasonable and quite comfortable for me (I always take earplugs to gigs just in case, but I had no need for them at all) but I think the physical presence of those speakers on the stage, pushing the air at the audience made for a better show. Not only that, but I enjoy playing gigs much more when I've got my rig on stage - precisely because I can feel the music far more.

That's the difference between a DJ playing a band's album over a PA, and a live band playing a show, in my book, as far as rock & roll is concerned.

If you can't feel the music, it ain't rock.

 

[rokkitt]

If you're asking "why model vs. just bringing a DI or mic'ing a rig, because it's really kinda the same thing," there are a couple of reasons to consider modeling. Done correctly, with the right interfaces and with the right software/app, you can get studio quality tone and the malleability of having a boatload of modeled gear at your fingertips. Literally.

But that seems to be the fundamental misunderstanding of what's in a good modeled rig, and exactly how malleable the apps are these days, as well as how user-friendly the software interfaces have become, both with WiFi and Bluetooth integration as well as wired MIDI controllers. But the key ingredient is a smaller footprint and much better stage volume control, along with an IEM mix that goes with you wherever you are.

In my instance, I run mine via my iOS device, but others run theirs via their MacBooks (my guitarist just switched his whole rig over). What you get by doing that isn't 3 clicks into a menu. If I need to change something on my rig (rarely happens, but let's say I do), I tap the specific item I need to adjust, and twist the knobs necessary to adjust the parameters. My modeled amp needs more bottom end? I change the settings on my HPF to allow for that. I need a cab or mic sim that is a bit less boomy? I tap the cabinet and it displays not only which cabinet I have, but a scrollable list of other cabinets, mic option, mic distances, and in Mac OS run environments with some software, dual mic capabilities.

Essentially, I pack a whole lot of tonal control and variability into that rig, because I can bring a modeled SVT, or a B15 or an 800RB, a load of compressors or fuzzes or distortions, etc., into one small device. And the models are surprisingly close to the real thing.

And then there's the physical interfaces one must compare in terms of mics and preamps and DIs. My guitarist and I both use Focusrite products, mine is an iTrack Solo and his is a Scarlett 212i. Insanely good, studio quality preamps, and very fast, high quality 24bit 96kHz processing. In mine, that gets sent to an ART Cleanbox Pro 2-channel DI. One channel is sent to the board, one receives from the board and patches to my IEM rig, which encompasses a compressor/noise gate, EQ, BBE Sonic Maximizer and then to my IEM transmitter.

My entire rig, which encompasses my iOS rig, my wireless, my DI send and DI returns, return processing and IEM transmitter all sit in one 8 rack space box and weigh about 32 pounds. And out front, it honestly sounds like 3200 pounds of gear.

that is what I am looking to do.

I have a 6 space, and a 4 space, and might buy another 6 space rack...hmmmmm getting close

rokkitt

 

[BurningSkies]

You either know something that 53 pages never uncovered or you're full of it.

We know the term 'good' is VERY VERY flexible.

 

[el murdoque]

i asked a similar question on a german forum and got a million replies as well.

I, too have a big rig. For playing bass, it's important to me to shake the ground and move air. Most venues do not offer huge sidefills and monitor cabs with 15" speakers.I can play with DI and without amp, even with crappy 12" monitor cabs, but it feels better if my rig is standing behind me, shaking the stage so i feel the bass with my feet.
In the last 3 years i played two gigs where i did not need to bring my rig because the stage was equipped that good. In one of the cases i did not know that i had two huge 15" monitors for me alone and brought my rig (well, i had a stagehand as well so all i had to do was get the rig in my car) and on the other occasion another bassplayer did bring his ampeg 8x10 and top and let me use it.
Being a hobby for me, it's also about GAS, so if GAS tells me to buy a big rig, common sense tells me i have to use it ;-)

 

[CL400Peavey]

Because a nice rig sounds nice and makes for a nice stage monitor - but unfortunately some deaf bass players also bring huge overkill rigs to little venues and crank them up way to LOUD too.

I hate this "listen with your eyes" kind of attitude.

To my knowledge every amp has some way to adjust the volume? Much more common in venues with a good PA, is some asshat sound guy making a mess of the mix.

In venues with out that kind of PA support, I find that it isnt the bass player over powering the mix, it is the guitard with his amp set on nuclear.

Additionally, its not a crime to play loud.

 

[BurningSkies]

I hate this "listen with your eyes" kind of attitude.

To my knowledge every amp has some way to adjust the volume? Much more common in venues with a good PA, is some asshat sound guy making a mess of the mix.

In venues with out that kind of PA support, I find that it isnt the bass player over powering the mix, it is the guitard with his amp set on nuclear.

Additionally, its not a crime to play loud.

ALWAYS show up for a gig with too much amp, never too little. Because you can always turn down, but if you don't have enough amp and the PA isn't what you expect you're in for a night of full on suck.

 

[mancefine]

I don't know if I've told this story before, I may have, but it really got me thinking about this whole DI v Rig discussion.

I recently was lucky enough to catch Paradise Lost, Lacuna Coil and Katatonia at the Roundhouse in Camden up in north London.

Katatonia were first. They all used IEM, played DI with emulators. Their sound was perfect. I mean, insanely crystal clear. Every note, beat, everything was perfect. They used playbacks for several tracks, and in many cases didn't even have a count-in, which means the playback click track was on in their IEMs. Although the sound was so perfect, something was missing, a certain je ne sais quois. If I closed my eyes and someone had put their cd in a player and played it through the PA, I honestly wouldn't have been able to tell the difference.

Lacuna Coil were on next, and they had a similar setup, except they did not all use IEMs, but ran through monitors as well. The bassist used a GK 2001RB and a NEO 412, he had a good sound. There was a bit more substance to the sound for sure, but still something wasn't quite right.

The je ne sais quois turned into an 'oh, right' when Paradise Lost came on. They used the traditional Marshall stacks and an Ampeg CL + 810 = the classic rock star setup for all concerned, in other words.

Their sound wasn't as crystal clear as Katatonia's, but you really felt the difference. The sound moved me, it became a physical manifestation of the show - it wasn't just 'sound' anymore, it was feeling. The music really becomes part of you.

Volume wise, it wasn't any louder than the previous bands - I was second row from the front and the sound level was very reasonable and quite comfortable for me (I always take earplugs to gigs just in case, but I had no need for them at all) but I think the physical presence of those speakers on the stage, pushing the air at the audience made for a better show. Not only that, but I enjoy playing gigs much more when I've got my rig on stage - precisely because I can feel the music far more.

That's the difference between a DJ playing a band's album over a PA, and a live band playing a show, in my book, as far as rock & roll is concerned.

If you can't feel the music, it ain't rock.

This was my sentiment exactly when I posted the original thread and people kept talking about modeling and straight DI with no rig. Just takes alot of the rocking out of rock and roll IMO to not have a big ol booming rig on stage. Plus you can't feel it nearly as well.

 

[Mushroo]

Biggest rig with the least knobs.

 

[BurningSkies]

I don't know if I've told this story before, I may have, but it really got me thinking about this whole DI v Rig discussion.

I recently was lucky enough to catch Paradise Lost, Lacuna Coil and Katatonia at the Roundhouse in Camden up in north London.

Katatonia were first. They all used IEM, played DI with emulators. Their sound was perfect. I mean, insanely crystal clear. Every note, beat, everything was perfect. They used playbacks for several tracks, and in many cases didn't even have a count-in, which means the playback click track was on in their IEMs. Although the sound was so perfect, something was missing, a certain je ne sais quois. If I closed my eyes and someone had put their cd in a player and played it through the PA, I honestly wouldn't have been able to tell the difference.

Lacuna Coil were on next, and they had a similar setup, except they did not all use IEMs, but ran through monitors as well. The bassist used a GK 2001RB and a NEO 412, he had a good sound. There was a bit more substance to the sound for sure, but still something wasn't quite right.

The je ne sais quois turned into an 'oh, right' when Paradise Lost came on. They used the traditional Marshall stacks and an Ampeg CL + 810 = the classic rock star setup for all concerned, in other words.

Their sound wasn't as crystal clear as Katatonia's, but you really felt the difference. The sound moved me, it became a physical manifestation of the show - it wasn't just 'sound' anymore, it was feeling. The music really becomes part of you.

Volume wise, it wasn't any louder than the previous bands - I was second row from the front and the sound level was very reasonable and quite comfortable for me (I always take earplugs to gigs just in case, but I had no need for them at all) but I think the physical presence of those speakers on the stage, pushing the air at the audience made for a better show. Not only that, but I enjoy playing gigs much more when I've got my rig on stage - precisely because I can feel the music far more.

That's the difference between a DJ playing a band's album over a PA, and a live band playing a show, in my book, as far as rock & roll is concerned.

If you can't feel the music, it ain't rock.

And that's sort of what I'm getting at when it comes to 'live band sound' vs. 'recorded band sound'. To me 'studio quality sound' isn't necessarily a selling point.

When I go to a show, I'm looking for something I DON'T get when listening to a song or album or CD at home. I don't WANT it to sound like it was recorded. I can listen to the recordings and hear that. I want what I'd consider more. Sound and mix that gives me more insight on what the artist is feeling or trying to communicate. That may mean more energy or emotion in an actual performance and it may mean sound that emphasizes different parts of the musical conversation.

And as someone who's gone to club shows to see people like Motorhead or even Soundgarden back before they got all 'rock band'...some bands also use volume as a palate of expression. That's totally OK. I may not necessarily want that all the time, but in some genres and settings its totally acceptable and expected.

In a similar yet different thing, when I first started going to see reggae bands live and in a reggae context, not a rock context and/or got to hear what real reggae in the dancehall sounded like it was a revelation. Big Bass. REALLY BIG BASS. The first time I played a show opening for Mad Professor, what HE did out front (which would have been authentic to the Island or Brit reggae scene) was AMAZING. So much bass that it was a HUGE emotional and psychological force. Several shows later he was swearing up a storm on the mic to the sound man telling him to take the limiters off of the sub arrays because he couldn't get more bass through the system than the already massive attack that was happening.

 

[jimfist]

This was my sentiment exactly when I posted the original thread and people kept talking about modeling and straight DI with no rig. Just takes alot of the rocking out of rock and roll IMO to not have a big ol booming rig on stage. Plus you can't feel it nearly as well.

That's fine. I hope you don't think that I was suggesting you ditch your live rig, b/c I'm not, nor do I believe I ever suggested you do so. If you like the way your rig sounds, you can keep it. I was specifically mentioning cabinet emulation as an alternative to a microphone, nothing more, nothing less. I apologize for contributing to sending this off topic and into the full-on modeling realm. If I were touring and had a road crew, I'd be using an 8x10 cab on stage.

FWIW, one should consider it an honor to be shat upon by the likes of JimmyM and Downunderwonder...at least I do.

 

[rolandm]

This was my sentiment exactly when I posted the original thread and people kept talking about modeling and straight DI with no rig. Just takes alot of the rocking out of rock and roll IMO to not have a big ol booming rig on stage. Plus you can't feel it nearly as well.

Indoor shows, we have 2 18s on either side of the stage, running 1,600 watts each for 6,400 watts of bass. Outdoors, we have 8 total of those for about 12,800 watts of bass.

Invalid Link Removed
Big festivals, we usually see huge Ws to either side of the stage as side fills like the ones above. Trust me when I say, feeling the bass from my modeled rig is not an issue with these, and the sound guys have had much less of an issue dialing in my sound to my liking with it. They also like the fact that the don't have to muck about with backline switchovers, as we're never the headlining act at those size of festivals.

Plus, at the end of our night, my ears aren't ringing. Always a bonus, IMO. YMMV, though.

All that being said, I play in 3 bands, one that is rock/pop/dance, one that is original/coffeehouse, and one that is eclectic original rock and covers. The only one I bring an amp to is the coffeehouse-type gigs, usually my GK BL600 into an Acme Low B2.

 

[jimfist]

How about the $500 emu-lite version? Can you give us a rundown on how that works please?

I can't tell anymore if you are serious or breaking my balls.

 

[JimmyM]

That's fine. I hope you don't think that I was suggesting you ditch your live rig, b/c I'm not, nor do I believe I ever suggested you do so. If you like the way your rig sounds, you can keep it. I was specifically mentioning cabinet emulation as an alternative to a microphone, nothing more, nothing less. I apologize for contributing to sending this off topic and into the full-on modeling realm. If I were touring and had a road crew, I'd be using an 8x10 cab on stage.

FWIW, one should consider it an honor to be shat upon by the likes of JimmyM and Downunderwonder...at least I do.

Not so much DUW but I get why you said that about me



Hardly pooping on you, though, Jim. If it works for you, it works and that's all there is to it. And like I said, it beats the alternative of just taking a raw DI feed directly from the bass.

 

[waveman]

I haven't chimed in as of yet, but my take on this is simple. My bass rig is for me to hear what I need to hear for a gig. When playing bigger stages, I just go direct from my amp w/o preamp EQing and trust the sound man to make it sound like it should for the audience. I have been offered to be mic'd, but decline every time because I don't want it in my way, and really don't think it's capturing what I am hearing a few feet away anyway.

 

[will33]

NeonVomit's take on it is pretty much my sentiments on the while thing as well, including IEM's (don't like them), but I don't think anyone's being shat upon. Somebody wants to use their emulators and things, go ahead....it's just not for me.

 

[Joe Louvar]

I hate this "listen with your eyes" kind of attitude.

+1, Yep stage hogs suck.

To my knowledge every amp has some way to adjust the volume? Much more common in venues with a good PA, is some asshat sound guy making a mess of the mix.

In venues with out that kind of PA support, I find that it isnt the bass player over powering the mix, it is the guitard with his amp set on nuclear.

Additionally, its not a crime to play loud.

Well, unfortunately the same deaf bass players who ALWAYS insist on bring huge overkill rigs to little venues because they think is LOOKS good (and their thousand other ridicules reasons) also can't resist from cranking up it to LOUD either. You know the type (usually guitards), that have every excuse under the sun to justify always bring their huge overkill rigs.

EDIT: And they're always in denial too.

 

[BurningSkies]

At last night's practice (the first since our Saturday gig where I donated my power amp to PA services and used my 500w LMII instead), I had BOTH guitar player and drummer comment on how much better it was to have my 'real amp' back. The guitar player particularly noticed that 'I could tell you didn't have your usual setup, and not in a good way. You weren't as loud OR as clear as usual."

So yeah.
It's not always about being a volume or a stage hog.

 

[jimfist]

I don't mean to discredit IR modelings. IR modeling is a very impressive and efficient technique which provides tons of applications.
However I would not expect a IR modeling may fully supersede a real tube amp gear.

Are we talking about IR modeling trying to supersede anything? I'm certainly not, at least in practical terms at this point in time. As for the future....we'll see. But as a viable option that can rival a mic placed in front of a cabinet? Sure.

I agree with you on your technical description of the interactivity between a tube (bass) head and the speakers being driven by it.

The best possible way to implement a cabinet IR, when using a tube head which contributes significant power output tube distortion, would be to implement a load box type DI from between the amp head and speakers, and feed a cabinet simulator from that DI.

This is the specific reason why the 2 Notes cab emulators provide tube power amp modeling in addition to the speaker/mic/mic placement. The more expensive 2 Notes models include a speaker thru output to connect to the bass cabinet, which will then pass the interactivity and distortion along to the line level feed at its output.

http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-cab/

If all of your overdrive/distortion comes before, or from the preamp stage of your bass amp, and the output is essentially putting out a linear, clean signal, then the IR model is more effective as a static entity.

I'm not here to claim that IR technology is the be-all, end-all, though I'm obviously intrigued by it, and use it (as do many others across the entire spectrum of the music performance/engineering/recording industry). It's just another option, regardless of whether anyone likes the idea or the financial and time costs associated with it.

To refresh the dilemma from the OP:

my question is what do you guys do to compensate and prepare for situations like this? My first inclination is to buy a beta 52 and when a soundman asks me where my DI is to point to the mic. But if I run into an issue like that again, is there a specific Mic I can use that is good for capturing live bass tone, or should I invest in an EQable DI? It just really seems odd to spend all that money on getting a good bass tone with your entire rig to have a sound guy only use part of the equation when it matters most (when people here it).