Why have a nice rig just to be run direct? PART 2

[CL400Peavey]

+1, Yep stage hogs suck.



Well, unfortunately the same deaf bass players who ALWAYS insist on bring huge overkill rigs to little venues because they think is LOOKS good (and their thousand other ridicules reasons) also can't resist from cranking up it to LOUD either. You know the type (usually guitards), that have every excuse under the sun to justify always bring their huge overkill rigs.

I find your generalizations offensive. I bring a large rig every where I play. My hearing is very good. I also never have anyone complain that I am too loud.

 

[mancefine]

That's fine. I hope you don't think that I was suggesting you ditch your live rig, b/c I'm not, nor do I believe I ever suggested you do so. If you like the way your rig sounds, you can keep it. I was specifically mentioning cabinet emulation as an alternative to a microphone, nothing more, nothing less. I apologize for contributing to sending this off topic and into the full-on modeling realm. If I were touring and had a road crew, I'd be using an 8x10 cab on stage.

FWIW, one should consider it an honor to be shat upon by the likes of JimmyM and Downunderwonder...at least I do.

Not at all! I think you have provided alot of awesome perspective and information that I would otherwise have not known anything about. I really think the only "right and wrong" situation here is when soundguys won't budge to mic you if you present a reasonable argument and come prepared. Everything else as far as mic vs DI vs modeling is purely subjective.

 

[jimfist]

Not at all! I think you have provided alot of awesome perspective and information that I would otherwise have not known anything about. I really think the only "right and wrong" situation here is when soundguys won't budge to mic you if you present a reasonable argument and come prepared. Everything else as far as mic vs DI vs modeling is purely subjective.

Cool. Sometimes it can be tough to wade through the noise, and there are already too many tube vs. modeler pissfests going on in forums as it is. =)

 

[will33]

I find your generalizations offensive. I bring a large rig every where I play. My hearing is very good. I also never have anyone complain that I am too loud.

Big rigs sound good turned down too.

It's usually venue owners in small places listening with their eyes and thinking you're too loud before you even turn it on.

My guitar player runs a Marshall 412 everywhere we play...it's his only rig. Soketimes it's barely even on. Dude could bury the whole band if he wanted to but never does. I even get to put a little of him in the monitors or tell him to turn up sometimes.

 

[xk49w]

Are we talking about IR modeling trying to supersede anything? I'm certainly not, at least in practical terms at this point in time. As for the future....we'll see. But as a viable option that can rival a mic placed in front of a cabinet? Sure.

There is another thing about cabinet IR modeling to consider. These IRs are usually captures of close mic'ed cabs, which when you think about it is not how someone hears a cab - it is what they would hear if they were to stick an ear up against the grill cloth. This is a normal cab mic'ing technique though. However, one could also capture IR of a cab mic'ed in the far field, defined in the previous reference as distance greater than 6 times the radius of the driver. This is something generally not done live. Maybe in the studio? Nothing other than practical considerations would prevent the capture of an IR of a cab mic'ed at two or more meters out front. One advantage over near-field would be elimination of the nulls and peaks that occur from that method.

I would think there would be a market for a simple and inexpensive IR loader/DI. Since it is just software though, feature creep would result in some EQ capability, maybe multiple preamps, maybe a variable steep HPF, some tube emulation, and now it is no longer a simple inexpensive IR loader/DI but has turned into, well, the Torpedo CAB for example.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I can't tell anymore if you are serious or breaking my balls.

Oh, dead set serious, there are a few who would take the $500 option to save on hassles with sound crew. You only mentioned it in passing.

The price difference to the high end is of a similar magnitude to Akgp2 vs PR40. I wouldn't expect the performance gap to be so close but here's your chance to make a sale.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Not so much DUW but I get why you said that about me



Hardly pooping on you, though, Jim. If it works for you, it works and that's all there is to it. And like I said, it beats the alternative of just taking a raw DI feed directly from the bass.

See, I've busted Jimmy's balls often enough he can tell when I'm only giving a friendly squeeze.

 

[will33]

There is another thing about cabinet IR modeling to consider. These IRs are usually captures of close mic'ed cabs, which when you think about it is not how someone hears a cab - it is what they would hear if they were to stick an ear up against the grill cloth. This is a normal cab mic'ing technique though. However, one could also capture IR of a cab mic'ed in the far field, defined in the previous reference as distance greater than 6 times the radius of the driver. This is something generally not done live. Maybe in the studio? Nothing other than practical considerations would prevent the capture of an IR of a cab mic'ed at two or more meters out front. One advantage over near-field would be elimination of the nulls and peaks that occur from that method.

I would think there would be a market for a simple and inexpensive IR loader/DI. Since it is just software though, feature creep would result in some EQ capability, maybe multiple preamps, maybe a variable steep HPF, some tube emulation, and now it is no longer a simple inexpensive IR loader/DI but has turned into, well, the Torpedo CAB for example.

I'm thinking something like this, before the "feature creep" may be a good solution for a lot of us.

Simple DI box with a power cord you plug in with the rest of your rig. Affordable, not full of endless menu's and selections, just one, or a few, good sounding samples, you can plug in and go, just like a regular DI.....but actually sounds better without being an expense out of the realm or "regular players".

A lot of the Impulse Response stuff being discussed here is expensive, high end, or part of some other modeling system that does a million other things we don't need to do.....ie: out of the realm of most musicians.

I've taken to using the 1/4" line out on my 400RB more and more instead of positioning one mic on a 2-way cab to catch what I need it to, then looking to see if it got bumped out of position during a gig. The line out comes "post-everything" and when run to the PA, basically sounds like it would if I played a fullrange cab like an Acme or Fearful or other. With a couple of knob twists I can make it sound quite good.

Give us a DI box that does that, and includes some realistic sounding musical instrument speaker emulation that wasn't expensive (meaning the price has to start with something lower than a 2) and I think you'd have a winner. It's just software....pretty cheap stuff after you've recovered R&D and can make them in large quantities.

Of course, me being a luddite, I'm going about coming up with a one-way bass cab I like and sticking a better mic in front of it, so I don't have to mess with 2 channels for one instrument.

 

[Passinwind]

I'm thinking something like this, before the "feature creep" may be a good solution for a lot of us.

Simple DI box with a power cord you plug in with the rest of your rig. Affordable, not full of endless menu's and selections, just one, or a few, good sounding samples, you can plug in and go, just like a regular DI.....but actually sounds better without being an expense out of the realm or "regular players".

A lot of the Impulse Response stuff being discussed here is expensive, high end, or part of some other modeling system that does a million other things we don't need to do.....ie: out of the realm of most musicians.

Invalid Link Removed may be fairly close to what you are asking for. Someone could probably take their development kit and do it just like you mentioned, something that's been on my mind for a while now.

 

[squidtastic]

Sonny did a lot of practice on a bridge.

Just took a look at that clip and enjoyed the Was Not Was portions. I never paid much attention to them -- Don Was was/is a great player!

 

[jimfist]

One advantage over near-field would be elimination of the nulls and peaks that occur from that method.
---
I would think there would be a market for a simple and inexpensive IR loader/DI.

Bingo! You'd never attempt a blend of 2 or 3 mics, in a combination of near and far field (for that matter, also to the side of the cabinet as well as rear) in a live situation. Studio captures allow you to do this, as well as use the best mics, preamps & EQs available to perform the capture. The average Joe doesn't have the ability to capture at this level, thus the 3rd party providers like Ownhammer and Redwirez, who use their years of engineering and mixing expertise to get these captures right. Or, with something like the 2 Notes, you just wade through the choices they've provided, or mix your own with their software.

 

[jimfist]

See, I've busted Jimmy's balls often enough he can tell when I'm only giving a friendly squeeze.

Fair enough, no worries. Inflection via internet doesn't always translate, etc.

 

[will33]

Invalid Link Removed may be fairly close to what you are asking for. Someone could probably take their development kit and do it just like you mentioned, something that's been on my mind for a while now.

Something like that could indeed be the ticket....especially after one has set it up to their liking and the "no PC needed" thing kicks in. Plug instrument in one end, outs to rig and board feed in the other....set it and forget it.

Could even be made either smaller, or at least cheaper, by reducing all the extraneous options and just boiling it down to a simple plug-n-play box with a couple selector switches that have enough variety to suit most of us.

For example, commonly used/useful low and high passes instead of infinite options. Couple/few musical sounding amp and cab models....done.

Nice looking stuff.


It seems to me that when designers get their "eyes opened" to all the different things stuff like this could do....they tend to lose focus of what the player actually needs/could make use of. Enter millions of options and the need for a computer of some sort, rather than "plug into box, flip switch or two, sound good, play" without thinking about it again the rest of the night.

 

[jimfist]

Oh, dead set serious, there are a few who would take the $500 option to save on hassles with sound crew. You only mentioned it in passing.

The price difference to the high end is of a similar magnitude to Akgp2 vs PR40. I wouldn't expect the performance gap to be so close but here's your chance to make a sale.

I don't own anything by 2 Notes, so let me start there. But I do understand what it does and the ways it can be implemented. The $549 C.A.B version is a stomp box style cabinet emulator/IR loader.

Everything is covered in the manual PDF:

Invalid Link Removed

The easiest thing to do would be take a post pre-amp line out of your bass head and then simply find one of the bass cabinet presets and see if any float your boat. What are the chances there? So, if you need to edit, you can change to a different bass cabinet IR, change mic, mic location, EQ, futz with the power amp modeling, etc. Chasing it further down the rabbit hole would be to use the IR blender software, which allows you get really, really complex with custom IR creations, using multiple IRs, loading custom IRs, or capturing your own stuff. If you like the mix of a 2x10 with a 1x15 cabinet, this is where that magic happens....however...

This is where most players get turned off b/c it enters the realm of engineering, and can be extremely time consuming stuff unless you know exactly what you are looking for. But this advanced feature set is there. For the engineers out there, it is GOLD. If you have very specific ideas about your cabinet IR, or want to do a lot of customizing, then there are learning curve issues. But again, that said, there are those out there who can perform absolute magic by knowing what combinations of speaker, mic, and distance can yield a stellar result.

One disappointment of the C.A.B is that it provides no XLR out built into the unit - only 1/4" line out - so you would either need a 1/4" to XLR adapter (hope your console has healthy input padding), or you're back out to a direct box. In addition, if you were to use this after your stomps, but before your stage amp, you would need a 100% dry split off the box before your amp so that emulated out ---> FOH and dry out ----> stage amp. So, I don't think they've fully got this sussed out for the various ways it would be used live. It seems to only want to go directly to a 1/4" input recording interface, or perhaps an IEM or full range rig. I don't know.

I still see a gap in the market for something like this, geared for simplicity and live use, and at half the cost or less. Depending on what else surfaces for cab emulator/IR-loader hardware, I'm probably going to pick up the C.A.B to use for some live gigs...FWIW.

 

[jeff7bass]

I wish this thread would die a natural death....

 

[xk49w]

Invalid Link Removed may be fairly close to what you are asking for. Someone could probably take their development kit and do it just like you mentioned, something that's been on my mind for a while now.

I think its a closed platform though isn't it? Because of this thread I bought one of these a couple of days ago. PM headed yours.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Seems to me there is a glaring lack of a speaker level DI that actually sounds like a speaker. I thought that was what the $500 system did.

 

[Matt Dean]

ALWAYS show up for a gig with too much amp, never too little. Because you can always turn down, but if you don't have enough amp and the PA isn't what you expect you're in for a night of full on suck.

This... ^

For me, I just like showing up to a gig with a Mesa Buster 200 and 2 Diesel 115s

 

[Passinwind]

I think its a closed platform though isn't it? Because of this thread I bought one of these a couple of days ago. PM headed yours.

Looking forward to that, as I have some experience with a different TI chip set. The guys at MiniDSP seem willing to work with third party developers who talk the right talk, but that would probably not be me. In any case, I was thinking more along the lines of Invalid Link Removed.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

I guess I just like it to sound good for me. No matter your rig, it's unlikely it will be used to amplify sounds for the entire room.

This.

I really don't care what the crowd hears, it's beyond my control anyway.

All I know is that in order for me to have a good time on stage, which leads to me delivering the goods and playing from my heart/groin/guts/whatever, I need to have a good sounding rig. It's as simple as that. How is this even an issue? Sometimes TalkBass seems like some sort of alternate dimension...