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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct? PART 2

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#61
Downunderwonder said:
Seems to me there is a glaring lack of a speaker level DI that actually sounds like a speaker. I thought that was what the $500 system did.
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Agreed. That costs another $450 for the Torpedo LIVE. So, yeah, if someone came out with a load box bass cab emulator for $500, that'd be very sweet indeed. I have no idea if the C.A.B. amp output tube emulation could match what you'd be looking for....maybe yes, maybe no. If tube output amp distortion is your thing, then certainly it gets pricey at the moment. Hopefully this will change, though. But many players have their drive/distortion happening at the pre-amp stage or via stomps. For this, the C.A.B would appear to work quite well.
 
#62
Downunderwonder said:
Seems to me there is a glaring lack of a speaker level DI that actually sounds like a speaker. I thought that was what the $500 system did.
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Speaker level DI catches amp flavor, which is already better than most DI's, but no speaker flavor (which is where the magic happens with "musical instrument" speakers).

Give us a speaker level DI, with GOOD speaker emulation, and you're there.

Seems a simple solution to me, but desigers seem to be so caught up in the whole millions of variables, hook a PC to it and craft endless sounds, save samples, etc., they don't realize we. just want a damn box we can plug in to and get a FOH sound that sounds as good as our rigs do.

REDDI does this for tube amp lovers. Avalon does it for the "pure, fullrange, clean" guys, neither has speaker emulation and both are way too expensive for regular folks.

Other stuff that purports "speaker emulation", ( like Line6, Zoom, etc. ) doesn't even come close for live sound. You can get good results in recordings with those, with all the endless processing that is at your fingertips there, but in live sound they're not even close....sound like a transistor radio.

To date, still, the best I've heard is a real speaker and a good mic. We can hack other countries nuclear comtrol systems, we can operate drones from 7000 miles away, we can land a vehicle on the surface of Mars and drive it from here....why in the hell can't we make a DI act like a speaker.:confused:
 
#64
Invalid Link Removed

3.3 The TORPEDO technology, convolution and Impulse Responses
The impulse response (IR) of a system describes its behavior under the form of a very detailed filter.
The convolution technique uses IRs to simulate the behavior of particular systems, such as reverbs,
speakers, EQ...
It is the most accurate way to simulate sound signatures that are linear (i.e. without distortion)
and time-invariant (i.e. without modulation, compression, hysteresis...). It is particularly well suited for
speaker miking simulation.
Two Notes has developed a unique technology based on an adaptation of convolution tech-
niques. Starting with a measure of a real cabinet + microphone setup, the TORPEDO TORPEDO C.A.B.
can accurately reproduce the system as it was measured, as well as the microphone’s position in
space, by using IR synthesis.

I did a couple of notes regarding this topic in a post I did before, however which I deleted because of much too much science stuff and mistakable words as well.

However, a real amplification system which contains only of a tube amp + cab (that is obsolete effects) is under specific conditions NOT time-invariant.
 
#67
will33 said:
We can hack other countries nuclear comtrol systems, we can operate drones from 7000 miles away, we can land a vehicle on the surface of Mars and drive it from here....why in the hell can't we make a DI act like a speaker.:confused:
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The answer is easy/simple, any DI and IR-modeling can't divine to the future and thereby compute specific parameter numbers because the origin system itself already is less time-invariant (more or less).
 
#69
ThisBass said:
The answer is easy/simple, any DI and IR-modeling can't divine to the future and thereby compute specific parameter numbers because the origin system itself already is less time-invariant (more or less).
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You do seem to like the time-invariance problem. IMO the problem is more about non-linearity than time-invariance. Time-invariance would be a problem if you were modeling say, a Leslie speaker where the impulse response depends on the instantaneous rotor angle. Why, the sound would be all jumbled up with the whirlies and you'd have a big mess. :D

I'd be satisfied with the linear solution. We are talking about a FOH feed here and subtleties are likely to be unobserved. Heck, maybe a fancy EQ would be good enough. Oh wait - that's what an IR loader is. :smug:
 
#70
Codger said:
You do seem to like the time-invariance problem. IMO the problem is more about non-linearity than time-invariance. Time-invariance would be a problem if you were modeling say, a Leslie speaker where the impulse response depends on the instantaneous rotor angle. Why, the sound would be all jumbled up with the whirlies and you'd have a big mess. :D

I'd be satisfied with the linear solution. We are talking about a FOH feed here and subtleties are likely to be unobserved. Heck, maybe a fancy EQ would be good enough. Oh wait - that's what an IR loader is. :smug:
Click to expand...

I applied to what's possible with IR and what is not.
Indeed a Lesly is one possibility to make a system not time-invariant.
But a system that is time-invariant means that all of its system transmission characteristics are independent from time.
That's the difference.

To be honest, IMO it is more sensible to figure out reasonable time depending transmission characteristics which become very typical for a system that exists of (tube) amp + cab instead of arguing with Lesly effects.

Again my claim, a system like tube amp + cab is not time-invariant upon certain conditions.
 
#71
ThisBass, I'm curious what you think of bass and guitar IR-based feeds when your mixing them in a full band context, in clubs of various sizes with strong sound reinforcement, or in studio recording sessions.
 
#72
jimfist said:
ThisBass, I'm curious what you think of bass and guitar IR-based feeds when your mixing them in a full band context, in clubs of various sizes with strong sound reinforcement, or in studio recording sessions.
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faithfully, the guitar sounds I don't like very much. I'm not the only one, a very good friend of mine who works as professional teacher for electric guitar holds a rather inferiority opinion then me (don't likes modeling nothing at all).

I did some sessions in the past where guitarists played modeling amps (as far as I remember line6 combo). That's not so bad, but not my taste. To me it sounds like something is lost. May be that I missed a little of the different facets of musical coloring and 'dynamic' which a amp may provide, depending on the players fashion how to play.
Whereas I'm pretty sure recording is a different animal!

Either way, the audience very likely does not hear any difference.
:p
 
#73
has your friend tried the Kemper Profiling Amp? Just kidding. Enough derailing the thread going into modelers. Im taking a break from this thread for a while. Go back to bashing sound guys. That was a much more fun read. ;-)
 
#74
No he did not tried the Kemper by now. But he had a modeling amp on its own for a while.
We both visited a concert a couple of weeks before were the guitar player had a Kemper on stage. a plenty of different sounds, all sounds worked well out of front, however 'musicality' sucked a little bit (no balls).
 
#75
jimfist said:
has your friend tried the Kemper Profiling Amp? Just kidding. Enough derailing the thread going into modelers. Im taking a break from this thread for a while. Go back to bashing sound guys. That was a much more fun read. ;-)
Click to expand...

By the other hand, I think you guys might have a discussion that just might enlighten the rest of us a bit.


seriously...there is a ton of good discussion in there that isn't being had.
 
#77
CL400Peavey said:
I find your generalizations offensive. I bring a large rig every where I play. My hearing is very good. I also never have anyone complain that I am too loud.
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Players only need enough amp volume to keep up with a drummers stage/room volume - anything more is just overkill and to LOUD. Most everyone here knows how loud drums are, and it really doesn't take a huge overkill bass rig to keep up with drums. ALWAYS bring a huge overkill bass rig that's capable of interfering with small outdoor concert subs, make peoples ears bleed, and tick off soundmen to little postage stamp size bar/venue gigs is ridicules.
 
#78
wow, I get in here to post that last night the soundman at my gig took both the DI from my amp and used my SM7 on my cab, and I get lost in a jumble of time-invariances and linear/non-linear solutions.

Hey guys, the soundman last night mic'd my rig using an SM7, and he took a direct out from my head.
I sounded massive in FOH.

/the end.
 
#79
TrevorOfDoom said:
wow, I get in here to post that last night the soundman at my gig took both the DI from my amp and used my SM7 on my cab, and I get lost in a jumble of time-invariances and linear/non-linear solutions.

Hey guys, the soundman last night mic'd my rig using an SM7, and he took a direct out from my head.
I sounded massive in FOH.

/the end.
Click to expand...

And that's the net-net, folks. ;)
 
#80
Joe Louvar said:
Players only need enough amp volume to keep up with a drummers stage/room volume - anything more is just overkill and to LOUD. Most everyone here knows how loud drums are, and it really doesn't take a huge overkill bass rig to keep up with drums. ALWAYS bring a huge overkill bass rig that's capable of interfering with small outdoor concert subs, make peoples ears bleed, and tick off soundmen to little postage stamp size bar/venue gigs is ridicules.
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Maybe you should think about looking into a rig that has one of these:

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I hear it takes care of all the problems you seem to be having with this concept.
 
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