Double Bass Why hide glue?

[unbrokenchain]

Im interested in what the standard procedure is when adding a tapered shim

Basically I'm just taking a cue from the Condino neck on my other Kay, the thicker neck is worlds easier on my hands and doesn't flex at all. That one has carbon fiber inserts as well, but I doubt I'll go that far. Just some more meat and another glue joint to hopefully stiffen it a bit but still use the same rosewood fingerboard.



Notice the shim? It tapers slightly thinner toward the nut.

 

[bassedsouth]

Basically I'm just taking a cue from the Condino neck on my other Kay, the thicker neck is worlds easier on my hands and doesn't flex at all. That one has carbon fiber inserts as well, but I doubt I'll go that far. Just some more meat and another glue joint to hopefully stiffen it a bit but still use the same rosewood fingerboard.

View attachment 3286144

Notice the shim? It tapers slightly thinner toward the nut.

Ok ..... Ive always seen shims the same colour as the neck wood and not the fb wood - nice way doing it !

 

[craigie]

You went this far, why not put in the CF Rods? Just kidding around and planting the seed of derision. . You know it was stable enough before.

Thanks for sharing. Can you detail how you prepared the hide glue? I’m gonna have to do that soon.

 

[unbrokenchain]

You went this far, why not put in the CF Rods? Just kidding around and planting the seed of derision. . You know it was stable enough before.

Thanks for sharing. Can you detail how you prepared the hide glue? I’m gonna have to do that soon.

CF would be cool and not out of the question, but probably a layer of complexity that I'd just as soon leave alone.

As for the glue, I just put some granules in a half pint mason jar (quarter to a half inch from the bottom by volume is a lot) and add water til it's about double the volume. I let it sit for an hour or two and then put the jar on a rag in a saucepan and add water to the saucepan to make a double boiler. Meat thermometer goes in the water, I shoot for a stable 140 degrees F. Once it's warm I add water or glue to get the right viscosity. James advises viscosity like this: honey is way too thick, motor oil still too thick, machine oil is about right. Here's a shot of my homebrew glue pot and steamer, the glue here hasn't been heated yet so it looks a little like some weird caviar.



It was actually KUNGfuSHERIFF (thanks man) who sent me a bit of hide glue years ago when I was messing with another project and hadn't ever used the stuff. It seemed intimidating at the time but it's easy to learn, now I keep a pound of it in the freezer just in case, and have been known to keep a small bag of it in my gear when I'm on tour. Figure I could come up with a saucepan, jar, and thermometer anywhere there's a dollar general..

 

[craigie]

CF would be cool and not out of the question, but probably a layer of complexity that I'd just as soon leave alone.

As for the glue, I just put some granules in a half pint mason jar (quarter to a half inch from the bottom by volume is a lot) and add water til it's about double the volume. I let it sit for an hour or two and then put the jar on a rag in a saucepan and add water to the saucepan to make a double boiler. Meat thermometer goes in the water, I shoot for a stable 140 degrees F. Once it's warm I add water or glue to get the right viscosity. James advises viscosity like this: honey is way too thick, motor oil still too thick, machine oil is about right. Here's a shot of my homebrew glue pot and steamer, the glue here hasn't been heated yet so it looks a little like some weird caviar.

View attachment 3286228

It was actually KUNGfuSHERIFF (thanks man) who sent me a bit of hide glue years ago when I was messing with another project and hadn't ever used the stuff. It seemed intimidating at the time but it's easy to learn, now I keep a pound of it in the freezer just in case, and have been known to keep a small bag of it in my gear when I'm on tour. Figure I could come up with a saucepan, jar, and thermometer anywhere there's a dollar general..

The other pots there are nothing to do with it? You’re directly heating the pot and that’s why you have the rag, to prevent tye hat being heated directly by the pot? An actual double boiler would be nice but seems unnecessary as your rag idea works.
Also, how long does it keep sealed in the jar and I expect you reheat it to use? I need to mix some up at my friends shop for a project there and then also use some at home.

 

[unbrokenchain]

The other pots there are nothing to do with it? You’re directly heating the pot and that’s why you have the rag, to prevent tye hat being heated directly by the pot? An actual double boiler would be nice but seems unnecessary as your rag idea works.
Also, how long does it keep sealed in the jar and I expect you reheat it to use? I need to mix some up at my friends shop for a project there and then also use some at home.

Correct. The pressure cooker with the bike hose on top is my makeshift steamer, but other stuff on the stove I just use for preparing food.

From what I understand you can freeze and re-heat the mixed glue multiple times as long as you don't overheat it (I stay below 150 F). But the stuff's cheap, I usually just make it new each time unless it's the next day or something.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Ha! I forgot all about that. Small world.

Glue can be heated and cooled multiple times without ill effect. Cover when not in use because it’s a great substrate for mold spores, and do not heat over 150 or the chemical bonds are damaged.

 

[james condino]

If you "paint" the rim of your glue jar with hot hide glue when everything is still hot, and then put a lid on it, the result will be very similar to grandma's canning process in the kitchen for jams and veggies. The jar will cool down and create a vacuum lock that will seal out the wee beasties and preserve your glue much longer for the next session. If not, in hot humid climates (like summer in North Carolina...), you can get surface mold on the top layer of glue overnight....

 

[bassedsouth]

I know a luthier that uses an ice cube tray to freeze / store blocks of hide glue

 

[robobass]

i didn't know about the 150° rule. I just keep the water in the saucepan slightly boiling and have never had a problem. I don't think the rag is really necessary. I reheat glue dozens of times over months.

 

[jsf729]

Can the granules go bad over time? Do they need to be stored in a cool/ cold/ dark environment?

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

i didn't know about the 150° rule.

My father was an organic chemist in his working life so when I read things like that they tend to stick in my memory.

 

[notabene]

I've used a cheap baby bottle warmer for years. Here's a similar one.

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A spice jar will work well with it. Small enough for patch jobs, big enough for more than you can use at one time, ie putting on a top or back. stick a meat thermometer in it.

Steven

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

With experience you can learn to eyeball it.

 

[powerbass]

I use HG sporadically so I mix small amounts in a 4oz glass jar, the jar is placed in a metal cup w/some water, the metal cup is placed on a clothes iron clamped in my work bench. This process works well

 

[unbrokenchain]

I use HG sporadically so I mix small amounts in a 4oz glass jar, the jar is placed in a metal cup w/some water, the metal cup is placed on a clothes iron clamped in my work bench. This process works well

Now that's good improv!

 

[unbrokenchain]

For anyone who's interested, the neck is now back on the bass! The joint looks awesome, heel fits like a glove and the lags provide extra confidence. Sturdy and reversible! Would take some photos but it's still sitting in James's shop ready for its fingerboard to be put back on. Condino has been indispensable here, I probably would have butchered the neck block trying to do what appears very easy for him, or at least the repair wouldn't look nearly as good. I'm also very appreciative of his patience in letting me be involved in the repair and do some of it with my own hands. And he's talked me into doing the carbon fiber inserts in the neck while we're at it. This bass is gonna kick!

 

[eh_train]

...I use HG sporadically...

Here's something about hide glue that hasn't been mentioned:

If I'm regluing a top, or using even a medium amount of hide glue, I use my "double boiler" (actually a repurposed, modded plastic kettle). If I have just one small-ish thing to glue, the microwave oven is a quick and easy way of heating it.

I thought maybe this was my own dirty little secret, but when I mentioned it at the Oberlin bass repair workshop nobody was surprised.

 

[craigie]

Had my first hide glue experience today. Went ok except I made way too much and had to cook it down a bit as well to get the right consistency. Hopefully it works!

 

[powerbass]

I use HG sporadically so I mix small amounts in a 4oz glass jar, the jar is placed in a metal cup w/some water, the metal cup is placed on a clothes iron clamped in my work bench. This process works well

I store the glass jar on the floor (colder) of my mostly heated shop hoping to discourage mold growth, I will try James Candino's tip of sealing the jar next time. As for mixing small amounts, I typically use a tablespoon or 2 of dry HG, I keep adding granules and water as needed. I can mix a new batch in 10-15 mins, stir frequently