Why I don't like onboard EQ

[KingRazor]

I've mixed for my church's worship team every weekend for the past 2 years now. We play a variety of CCM and we even stray a bit from that for special events. The church bass is an active bass. No one ever touches the knobs. Yet, the bass never gets buried. I don't even change its EQ on the FOH board. Heck, I rarely even move its fader. Whether the sanctuary is empty for it has standing room only, the bass sounds more or less the same.

Just saying.

 

[JehuJava]

With the exception of our opinions on shelving EQ, you and I actually seem to be on the same page...

Probably.

And since this thread I've recognized my passive pj to be the best sounding bass I own. Super organic. But I attribute that to the bass woods, pickups, and preamp more than the eq.

I don't think of the eq knobs as the problem though. I have and will continue to use them as quick adjustments though if a certain song or venue needs it. Im probably not skilled enough to be able to pick out a trouble freq and fix it with a more sophisticated eq.

 

[KingRazor]

Probably.

And since this thread I've recognized my passive pj to be the best sounding bass I own. Super organic. But I attribute that to the bass woods, pickups, and preamp more than the eq.

I don't think of the eq knobs as the problem though. I have and will continue to use them as quick adjustments though if a certain song or venue needs it. Im probably not skilled enough to be able to pick out a trouble freq and fix it with a more sophisticated eq.

Well, if I understand how passive electronics work, the pickups are more "connected" to everything with passive electronics.

Active electronics "isolate" the pickups, which prevents(?) pickup loading and gives the benefit of a low impedence output, reducing or even eliminating treble loss over long cable runs.

But I think the fact that pickup loading occurs with the passive pickups, and that they're not isolated, contributes to the tone a lot of us love about them.

But my understanding of electronics is almost completely limited to what I've read here on TB, so take whatever I say about it with a grain of salt.

 

[KingRazor]

I guess my confusion comes from the fact that I regularly play in loud rock mixes in places with questionable sound reinforcement, and I'm not picky about my bass tone as long as it works with the band and gets heard. Sometimes to get heard you need that kind of adjustment on-the-fly and it's easier to access on the bass... it doesn't always work out like sitting in a studio (or behind the mixing board) when you're on stage!

I mean, I have passive basses that I play live too, but I always find myself feeling more at the mercy of everyone else with them.

Just curious, but have you run into situations where you were right where you needed to be in the mix at the start of the song, but at some point during the middle you got lost? That seems like one of the only times you would need "on-the-fly" adjustment capabilities. I haven't heard that happen with the bass at my church when I'm mixing.

Also, sometimes when you want more lows, it's better to simply boost your overall volume, so that the mids and highs get boosted as well and you don't lose clarity.

 

[tabdog]

I bought a Westone Electra X640N in 1985.
I have never found another bass with active
electronics that work as well as my Westone.
It is a PJ configuration with phase shifting on
both pups. It is like selecting amp models on
board.

I use that bass, or a P bass. Either of those,
the amp can be set flat and it sounds fine.
It can go direct with no problems. I still
control the sound.

For those reasons, I have never been able to
buy another active bass. I have never found
a Jazz or a PJ that sounds OK to me, except
for ones out of my price range.

It is rare though. I have never seen another
X640N,

Tabdog

 

[Kwesi]

You sound very qualified: To speak for yourself that is............if that works for you, great. My real question is why do you need to post a thread about it? I can understand getting some feedback about what others may discuss.

I for one, like pancakes, but don't like waffles

+infinity, lol. It's not like you have to justify to us why you do whatever you do and frankly, most of us don't care. Do what works for you. Period.

 

[KingRazor]

+infinity, lol. It's not like you have to justify to us why you do whatever you do and frankly, most of us don't care. Do what works for you. Period.

But posting rants about your personal opinions towards basses and gear is the back bone of talkbass!

I was mainly trying to understand the purpose of having EQ controls on your bass. I listed reasons for why I think that there is no point to having them. Other people responded with reasons why they think they're useful. I posted with counter-reasons.

Whether I made any good arguments or not isn't really the point.

I still think on-board EQ is completely pointless unless you truly enjoy altering your EQ in the middle of a song, or if it's impractical for you to make EQ adjustments in-between songs without it. Since I personally have no need or desire to do either of those things, on-board EQ controls are completely pointless for me.

I enjoy discussing things on talkbass, and don't really care if other people think they're not worth discussing. If you don't care, then you don't care and you don't have to respond to my threads. I'm not forcing you to participate in a discussion if you don't want to.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I really, really don't like onboard equalizers on bass. I don't mind preamps themselves so much, but I just don't like the EQ controls.

Why?
...

I have to say that part of the problem is you are not using it correctly. Just because the knob goes up to 10 doesn't mean that you have to turn it up to 10.

Your amp has EQ also, and it probably behaves just like the bass' EQ. You don't turn that up to 10, do you? Less is more.

Also all EQ does exactly what your saying; it makes the frequencies at that band either louder or softer. That's what EQ does and that's what you want it to do.

Shelving EQ is not limited, and if it's too complicated what would you do with a parametric EQ? You can do a whole lot with shelving EQ.

Your EQ knobs have center detents. When set there it is more-or-less flat. If you don't want any EQ, leave it there.

Don't worry about knobs getting bumped, just set them back to where you want them.

Since you have no gigging experience you might be worried about this stuff, but there's nothing to worry about. I've been playing about 42 years now, and gigging about 38 years so I'll tell you what I do.

What it's good for is when some song you are playing would sound better with a dark mellow tone, or another would sound good with a bright cutting tone. You might want to use a one knob set-and-forget bass, but that like using one color to paint with. The rest of the band isn't doing that. Why limit yourself?

What I tend to do it give myself a slight bass boost, and generally leave it there. Not much, just about 10 or 11:00. Then I alter the treble control depending on what I'm playing.

Or, there might be a sound I use for certain songs. Another example is you might want some bass boost when soloing the bridge pickup. Or some treble boost when soloing the neck pickup.

Even on passive my basses I'm changing the pickup blend and the passive tone control for different tones. Not a lot, just a little of this or that.

But there's nothing wrong with finding a setting you like and leaving it there. If you are really worried about the knobs moving, stick some tape on them, or make a mark with a china marker (like a crayon), so you know where to set them.

But you will find after a while of using your EQ that you know where you like it.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

But posting rants about your personal opinions towards basses and gear is the back bone of talkbass!

I was mainly trying to understand the purpose of having EQ controls on your bass. I listed reasons for why I think that there is no point to having them. Other people responded with reasons why they think they're useful. I posted with counter-reasons.

Whether I made any good arguments or not isn't really the point.

I still think on-board EQ is completely pointless unless you truly enjoy altering your EQ in the middle of a song, or if it's impractical for you to make EQ adjustments in-between songs without it. Since I personally have no need or desire to do either of those things, on-board EQ controls are completely pointless for me.

I enjoy discussing things on talkbass, and don't really care if other people think they're not worth discussing. If you don't care, then you don't care and you don't have to respond to my threads. I'm not forcing you to participate in a discussion if you don't want to.

It's pretty evident that your opinion is based solely on a very limited microcosm of experience. Your entire experience is over a relatively short period of time, with one instrument, in one particular location, doing a very limited set of songs, with a very limited set of musicians. The rest of the world is FAR different.

Like many TB'ers, I've gigged in venues and to crowds of all sizes, with a large number of different musicians, in a large number of genres, over many years. In nearly 25 years of playing, having owned probably 20 different basses, *MOST* of my personal experience has been with passive basses, but I've more recently started finding a 3-band EQ very useful - and not for changing tone in the middle of a song. I can use the same bass for funk or jazz or country or hard rock. I don't always have my own amp with me, so I'm not about to screw with some unknown EQ, trying to get a sound that works for a given situation, let alone a given song. Nor am I going to let an unknown soundperson dictate my tone when I have to run DI. Knowing how my own on-board EQ responds, it's very easy to make that bass work in just about any environment - including the studio. I can't think of a single time I've EVER turned the EQ all the way up or down. Usually it's just a hair past the center detent, but it's enough to give (or take) that extra edge, or bottom, or mids that I need.

I'm not gonna say that you should use an EQ. Like I said, most of my 25 years of playing has been with passive basses. In fact, only one of my 7 current basses has any active EQ. But that's the one that I've found to be the easiest to make sound right in any situation. Sometimes those situations are with my own amp, sometimes they are direct through the house with no amp. Works for me, but making any kind of blanket statement regarding the usefulness of EQ or anything else bass-related is just asking for trouble. So, if it doesn't work for you, that's cool, but don't try to convince me that I'm wrong when my decision is based on much deeper experience than your's.

BTW - I grew up playing, and still do to this day play, in church. I've run sound, I've built sound systems, I've trained sound people and musicians. That is part of my experience, but only a very small part it as a bassist. I've been where you are experience-wise, and I thought I had things figured out, but things change.

 

[Kwesi]

But posting rants about your personal opinions towards basses and gear is the back bone of talkbass!

Of course.

I was mainly trying to understand the purpose of having EQ controls on your bass.

I really don't think you were. It seems to me that you are completely happy without an on-board EQ and see no reason to have one. If you were really trying to understand the good that they can do, you would have worded your OP post differently.[/quote]

Whether I made any good arguments or not isn't really the point.

I never said you did ro didn't and either way it doesn't matter. You seem to know what works for you. At that point the 'why' is inconsequential.

Since I personally have no need or desire to do either of those things, on-board EQ controls are completely pointless for me.

Again, you seem to have already made up your mind about onboard EQs. You're fine without them and so are plenty of other people. It's nothing new and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[KingRazor]

I have to say that part of the problem is you are not using it correctly. Just because the knob goes up to 10 doesn't mean that you have to turn it up to 10.

Your amp has EQ also, and it probably behaves just like the bass' EQ. You don't turn that up to 10, do you? Less is more.

I was only turning keeping the knobs at either extreme because of the fact that the knobs didn't always stay put at "in-between" settings (at least on my Ibanez), because I wanted a consistent tone and didn't want to have to remember where it was exactly everytime, and lastly, because it was just simpler. To be honest, part of it was just lazyness.

Also all EQ does exactly what your saying; it makes the frequencies at that band either louder or softer. That's what EQ does and that's what you want it to do.

Shelving EQ is not limited, and if it's too complicated what would you do with a parametric EQ? You can do a whole lot with shelving EQ.

Shelving EQ seems very limited to me. I don't want to simply boost or cut ALL of the frequencies above or below a certain point (especially if I can't control where that point is), I like to boost a certain frequency range, by a certain amount. A PEQ accomplishes this much better.

Your EQ knobs have center detents. When set there it is more-or-less flat. If you don't want any EQ, leave it there.

Don't worry about knobs getting bumped, just set them back to where you want them.

If I'm going to leave it flat most of the time, why have the knobs there at all?

Since you have no gigging experience you might be worried about this stuff, but there's nothing to worry about. I've been playing about 42 years now, and gigging about 38 years so I'll tell you what I do.

What it's good for is when some song you are playing would sound better with a dark mellow tone, or another would sound good with a bright cutting tone. You might want to use a one knob set-and-forget bass, but that like using one color to paint with. The rest of the band isn't doing that. Why limit yourself?

What I tend to do it give myself a slight bass boost, and generally leave it there. Not much, just about 10 or 11:00. Then I alter the treble control depending on what I'm playing.

Or, there might be a sound I use for certain songs. Another example is you might want some bass boost when soloing the bridge pickup. Or some treble boost when soloing the neck pickup.

Even on passive my basses I'm changing the pickup blend and the passive tone control for different tones. Not a lot, just a little of this or that.

But there's nothing wrong with finding a setting you like and leaving it there. If you are really worried about the knobs moving, stick some tape on them, or make a mark with a china marker (like a crayon), so you know where to set them.

But you will find after a while of using your EQ that you know where you like it.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

I don't have any gigging experience, so maybe what you say is true, but simply thinking about my personality and playing style, I really doubt I'll ever have a desire for on-board EQ controls.

@lowfreqgeek: I don't ever plan on being in a situation where I'm gigging with different bands and different venues and playing through gear that isn't my own much if at all. I don't plan on making music my career (at least, not playing music). The most I'll ever do with bass playing is maybe play in a cover band that is still in the planning stages and may never come together, and possibly a few odd jobs as a studio bassist, if I ever get good enough to be one.

@Kwesi: You're right, I have made up my mind about on-board EQ, or at least traditional 2/3 band EQ setups. I guess I just wanted to know if there was anything I hadn't thought of that might make me consider getting the right kind of on-board EQ.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Well that's fair enough, but I think just saying that you aren't interested in onboard EQ is better than the reasons you gave.

Knobs never stay put, and your bass doesn't stay in tune either. That's just the way it is. I always start off with my bass' controls set flat, then I play a little and make adjustments. You have to use your ears, not stick to a number.

I think the main reason I like it is the same reason Markus Miller had a Bart preamp put in his Jazz bass. It allowed him to have control over his tone. He couldn't do that in the studio because the producer or engineer felt they knew what the bass should sound like. With the onboard controls, he was able to tweak his tone himself.

I do that when I'm recording (I go direct) or even a few times when I was playing in a church format and had to go direct to the PA with no amp.

But I like altering my tone, and some people, like you, don't. Nothing wrong with that.

You can get a preamp with a sweepable midrange, but I don't know of too many with sweepable bass and treble controls except by Knoll. They make a two and three band parametric EQ.

 

[KingRazor]

Well that's fair enough, but I think just saying that you aren't interested in onboard EQ is better than the reasons you gave.

Knobs never stay put, and your bass doesn't stay in tune either. That's just the way it is. I always start off with my bass' controls set flat, then I play a little and make adjustments. You have to use your ears, not stick to a number.

I think the main reason I like it is the same reason Markus Miller had a Bart preamp put in his Jazz bass. It allowed him to have control over his tone. He couldn't do that in the studio because the producer or engineer felt they knew what the bass should sound like. With the onboard controls, he was able to tweak his tone himself.

I do that when I'm recording (I go direct) or even a few times when I was playing in a church format and had to go direct to the PA with no amp.

But I like altering my tone, and some people, like you, don't. Nothing wrong with that.

You can get a preamp with a sweepable midrange, but I don't know of too many with sweepable bass and treble controls except by Knoll. They make a two and three band parametric EQ.

Yeah, I think this thread has run its course. When it comes down to it, as has been repeated ad nauseum on TB: you play what you like.

I think I'm going to simply stick to buffer circuits from now on for basses where I prefer an "active" tone and leave out the preamp entirely on others.

 

[chadhargis]

I like an EQ on the bass.

I set my amp up for the room, and use the tone/EQ controls on my bass to get the sound I want.

The only exception is my passive Jazz which only has a single tone knob. Can't get the DEEP bottom end I want without pushing it on my amp. Then I plug in another bass and wonder why my teeth are rattling out when I hit the first note.

Much nicer to have the controls on the bass.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

@lowfreqgeek: I don't ever plan on being in a situation where I'm gigging with different bands and different venues and playing through gear that isn't my own much if at all. I don't plan on making music my career (at least, not playing music). The most I'll ever do with bass playing is maybe play in a cover band that is still in the planning stages and may never come together, and possibly a few odd jobs as a studio bassist, if I ever get good enough to be one.

It's really not a big deal, but the tone of your original and subsequent posts is "on board EQ is totally useless and stupid and I can't understand why anyone would ever think otherwise." It's as if you consider all other experience and points of view invalid. Perhaps you don't really feel that way, but that's how it comes across.

In the case of your Ibanez, that's probably not a good basis for ANY decision regarding on-board EQ. I don't consider those to be "good", and would personally opt to not use it rather than let it do whatever to my signal. But a good, well thought out, well design, well built EQ can be a huge advantage in certain situations that you admittedly have no interest in ever being in.

Sorry if we all come down kinda hard on you. In my opinion, the tone of your posts is "my way's the only way and I'm gonna tell you why" and you well know that won't do much to win friends and influence people.

 

[KingRazor]

It's really not a big deal, but the tone of your original and subsequent posts is "on board EQ is totally useless and stupid and I can't understand why anyone would ever think otherwise." It's as if you consider all other experience and points of view invalid. Perhaps you don't really feel that way, but that's how it comes across.

In the case of your Ibanez, that's probably not a good basis for ANY decision regarding on-board EQ. I don't consider those to be "good", and would personally opt to not use it rather than let it do whatever to my signal. But a good, well thought out, well design, well built EQ can be a huge advantage in certain situations that you admittedly have no interest in ever being in.

Sorry if we all come down kinda hard on you. In my opinion, the tone of your posts is "my way's the only way and I'm gonna tell you why" and you well know that won't do much to win friends and influence people.

I apologize if my posts came across that way. Even if I meant it that way at the time, I realize that that way of thinking is flawed and, quite frankly, stupid.

The sound board I work with has a 4-band semi-parametric EQ and I rarely seem to find any use for the high and low shelving EQ knobs. I wish they were full parametric, like the low-mid and high-mid controls. Since it has a filter control that can be used as either a high pass, low pass, band pass, or notch, I don't really have a need for the two shelving EQs.

I feel the same way about on-board EQ controls on a bass. Even if they sound good and are set at the right frequencies, I still feel that I would find them too limited. I do like the idea of the high/low pass filter control EQ system that I've seen mentioned on this board. I use high pass filters on just about everything. I actually like setting one at about 60Hz on a bass to help tighten up the low end.

 

[georgestrings]

I like an EQ on the bass.

I set my amp up for the room, and use the tone/EQ controls on my bass to get the sound I want.

The only exception is my passive Jazz which only has a single tone knob. Can't get the DEEP bottom end I want without pushing it on my amp. Then I plug in another bass and wonder why my teeth are rattling out when I hit the first note.

Much nicer to have the controls on the bass.

I do something similar - I tend to use both passives and actives during a typical 4 hour gig, so I set my amp to sound good with my passives, then balance those settings out with my active's on-board EQ...

Also, as stated earlier, if you're having a difficult time hearing yourself in a band mix, boosting mids a bit will usually help that... What sounds best in a bedroom or by yourself is rarely what works best in a band mix...


- georgestrings

 

[KingRazor]

Alright, I think everything that needs to be said has been, and this thread has run its course. I can't close it, but I'm done here. Thank you to all of those who provided meaningful input. This was a learning experience, even though I came out with more or less the same opinions I had at the beginning.

 

[kraigo]

In my case...

I try to find a basic sound that work for every setting I'm going to find myself in. A P-Bass type tone works for me. I have one of your N3's in my Artcore and that works really well because it's a good solid tone yet has a lot of top end.. I've listened to your sound clips and I don't sound like any of that, but your pickups work very well for me to the point where I would be happy with nothing else. And yet, what you like and what I like are totally different.

Anyway, I don't like to muck around with tone. The basic sound I get from my P-Bass or Ibanez Artcore with your pickup are good for me. I tend to work quickly. I want to get myself in tune, set up the bass amp, verify that I've got a signal and move on to other things. The amp has been roughly EQ'd to my tastes and I can deviate from there. What I hate is having the fact that the knobs on the bass have been screwed up going in and out of the case!

No matter how many times I play, eventually they'll get screwed up and I'll forget to check. I need to be able to get to my basic "it works for me" tone very quickly. With the passive basses it's easy - dime the volume and tone (with the Artcore, set the coil switch to parallel). I don't want to search for "3" on the mids.

I have (surprise!) fairly simple amps as well. Usually what I have to tailor is the low end. With the Artcore, if I need more low end I switch to series mode. Often what I need is more low mids or less lows. The Shuttle 6.0 makes that easy.

For me, active electronics bring nothing to the party, just a whole lot more variables to deal with. Additionally, I tend to not like the way they sound. It's like there's an extra layer of compression going on or something.

If the rest of you get what you need with active electronics, go right ahead. For my needs a simple bass lets me forget about the instrument and pay more attention to the music.

KO

I have to say that part of the problem is you are not using it correctly. Just because the knob goes up to 10 doesn't mean that you have to turn it up to 10.

Your amp has EQ also, and it probably behaves just like the bass' EQ. You don't turn that up to 10, do you? Less is more.

Also all EQ does exactly what your saying; it makes the frequencies at that band either louder or softer. That's what EQ does and that's what you want it to do.

Shelving EQ is not limited, and if it's too complicated what would you do with a parametric EQ? You can do a whole lot with shelving EQ.

Your EQ knobs have center detents. When set there it is more-or-less flat. If you don't want any EQ, leave it there.

Don't worry about knobs getting bumped, just set them back to where you want them.

Since you have no gigging experience you might be worried about this stuff, but there's nothing to worry about. I've been playing about 42 years now, and gigging about 38 years so I'll tell you what I do.

What it's good for is when some song you are playing would sound better with a dark mellow tone, or another would sound good with a bright cutting tone. You might want to use a one knob set-and-forget bass, but that like using one color to paint with. The rest of the band isn't doing that. Why limit yourself?

What I tend to do it give myself a slight bass boost, and generally leave it there. Not much, just about 10 or 11:00. Then I alter the treble control depending on what I'm playing.

Or, there might be a sound I use for certain songs. Another example is you might want some bass boost when soloing the bridge pickup. Or some treble boost when soloing the neck pickup.

Even on passive my basses I'm changing the pickup blend and the passive tone control for different tones. Not a lot, just a little of this or that.

But there's nothing wrong with finding a setting you like and leaving it there. If you are really worried about the knobs moving, stick some tape on them, or make a mark with a china marker (like a crayon), so you know where to set them.

But you will find after a while of using your EQ that you know where you like it.

That's my 2 cents anyway.