hey, you wanna palm mute, you go right ahead. i think it's a great sound, too. but let's not pretend that it's good for your hand to be in that position.
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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
I've been very interested in this discussion, it's topical and timely, even though I'm trying to play 90% fingerstyle meself, I think that good pick technique is essential for a different tone as well.
1. The Kaye method describes one essential point which I have not seen discussed here yet: The downstroke is all gravity, the effort is in the upstroke, this way you get a tension-release-tension-release thing going on. The idea that you let the pick "fall" gives your arm the release of tension, and the fact that it happens on the strong beat is great for bass technique.
2. In classical bow hold, the thumb is always straight, or bent, never curved hyper-extended-style. This is good for all picking technique too. It may take a while to master, but it will benefit you in the long run.
3. The area we play over (near the neck, near the bridge) gives different sounds, and that is something the player makes a choice about, separately from techniqe. The area near the neck will give a strong fundamental, and closer to the bridge will emphasize upper harmonics.
4. It is possible to palm-mute without resting your hand on the bridge, if you MUST have that sound. However playing all night with the palm on the bridge is gonna negate all this other technique. You are better off adjusting your amp tone if you want that sound.
I had a lot of problems when I was learning classical guitar technique. I've not had CTS, but I've had tendonittis, and gotten over it. (You need to see a specialist to know which one you have, they feel the same). It took a lotta work, but it's possible.
1. The Kaye method describes one essential point which I have not seen discussed here yet: The downstroke is all gravity, the effort is in the upstroke, this way you get a tension-release-tension-release thing going on. The idea that you let the pick "fall" gives your arm the release of tension, and the fact that it happens on the strong beat is great for bass technique.
2. In classical bow hold, the thumb is always straight, or bent, never curved hyper-extended-style. This is good for all picking technique too. It may take a while to master, but it will benefit you in the long run.
3. The area we play over (near the neck, near the bridge) gives different sounds, and that is something the player makes a choice about, separately from techniqe. The area near the neck will give a strong fundamental, and closer to the bridge will emphasize upper harmonics.
4. It is possible to palm-mute without resting your hand on the bridge, if you MUST have that sound. However playing all night with the palm on the bridge is gonna negate all this other technique. You are better off adjusting your amp tone if you want that sound.
I had a lot of problems when I was learning classical guitar technique. I've not had CTS, but I've had tendonittis, and gotten over it. (You need to see a specialist to know which one you have, they feel the same). It took a lotta work, but it's possible.
Bet I could record a track with all downstrokes that you couldn't duplicate using down/up.
For that matter, I bet Dee Dee Ramone could reco--- oh, wait, he's dead.
how high do you keep your action to play this way?
I am still experimenting with the CK method and I had to raise my action a bit to get a clean and strong sound. I read on her website that she keeps a high action.
as she states on her website, there so much strenght in the wrist that you could push really hard with the right hand. My right hand would like high action but my left hand sores
I am still experimenting with the CK method and I had to raise my action a bit to get a clean and strong sound. I read on her website that she keeps a high action.
as she states on her website, there so much strenght in the wrist that you could push really hard with the right hand. My right hand would like high action but my left hand sores
Carol Kaye saved my career. I was having a trigger finger problem. Her advice was to shift my thumb position of my left hand, worked tremendously. All bassists should have her DVD in their collection, tons of valuable insight. Don't let her age fool you, she is to this day a serious player. Her approach to theory is also enlightening. Thanks Carol!
- Jul 8, 2009
- 1,612
- 11
- Disclosures
- A&R, Soulless Corporation Records
That's almost exactly how I play. Only difference is I use a lighter pick (didn't like the sound I got from my big 0.43"s) and use more downstrokes. I always played more at the neck because I always considered playing right at the bridge to be too nasally.
Also, would the afore mentioned pick size be heavy enough?
Also, would the afore mentioned pick size be heavy enough?
- Jul 8, 2009
- 1,612
- 11
- Disclosures
- A&R, Soulless Corporation Records
no, and no, you don't pick anything like the carol kaye method if you use all downstrokes. downstrokes are a major cause of pain in people who use a pick on bass. if i do all downstrokes, i can go for about 20 seconds before the pain starts getting intense.
as for pick heaviness, a regular fender heavy, which i think is around .90, is about as light as you should go.
and the cardboard box would wear out too quickly and get soft.
Yes, a proper warm up is very important.
With any kind of physical activity, especially a repetitive one, one of the most important things to avoid is holding excess tension in your body. You must try to make sure you are as relaxed and fluid as possible in order to avoid injury. While playing, try to observe if you are tensing any part of your arm, shoulders, neck, jaw, etc. and if you are, try to make a concious effort to relax that. Also be careful that you don't relax one part of your body only to move the tension somewhere else. It's a good idea to have someone watch you while playing to see if they can spot areas that you are tensing.
So yes, a slow careful warm up, good alignment, taking regular breaks and a good sense of body awareness are all keys to avoiding injury.
With any kind of physical activity, especially a repetitive one, one of the most important things to avoid is holding excess tension in your body. You must try to make sure you are as relaxed and fluid as possible in order to avoid injury. While playing, try to observe if you are tensing any part of your arm, shoulders, neck, jaw, etc. and if you are, try to make a concious effort to relax that. Also be careful that you don't relax one part of your body only to move the tension somewhere else. It's a good idea to have someone watch you while playing to see if they can spot areas that you are tensing.
So yes, a slow careful warm up, good alignment, taking regular breaks and a good sense of body awareness are all keys to avoiding injury.
+1, this is how I pick when I do use a pick, 25 percent or less, but 30 years, no problem yet, knock on bass.
Reb
Check this video of Allen Woody picking the hell out of an Gibson. Around 1:00... is this what you are saying is the WRONG THING TO DO? Jimmy?
I am just curious... seems like Woody is working pretty efficiently. Although that doesn't mean it is a good way to do it.
By the way, I saw John Wetton perform with Asia about two years ago. It is obvious that he has put in a lot work to "re-learn" how to pick with his thumb. His voice was good too.
Also, FWIW, Woody's tone here is awesome.
I am just curious... seems like Woody is working pretty efficiently. Although that doesn't mean it is a good way to do it.
By the way, I saw John Wetton perform with Asia about two years ago. It is obvious that he has put in a lot work to "re-learn" how to pick with his thumb. His voice was good too.
Also, FWIW, Woody's tone here is awesome.
Gregg, actually Allen looks like he had the carol kaye thing down pretty good. down-up, using the wrist, etc...he's not super close to the neck but an eb-0 is medium scale so you have more leeway since the strings aren't as tight as on a long scale bass.
i agree...great tone...makes me want to restore my 60 eb-0 that's broken in the garage.
i agree...great tone...makes me want to restore my 60 eb-0 that's broken in the garage.
I don't think I could let a 60 eb-0 sit in my garage. I just couldn't.
I'm going to watch some more of that video again. I love pick tone, but I am primarily a finger player. Time to go back to school.
As usual, great thread Jimmy.
dang it, gregg...i was going to get a new neck for my 76 fender body first, but you're making me jones for the eb-0 now. but it's going to take a lot of expensive and time consuming body work.
Those EB-0's are great basses. If I had some cash I'd offer to take it off your hands. Then I could practice your pick method on it.
Although I have drifted to a more closed hand Carol Kaye type technique the last couple of years I've still learned a lot from Steve Swallow.
Carol has commented negatively on his open hand saying it lacked power but it's interesting to compare the two styles. Ultimately both are very fluid and get the job done.
Carol has commented negatively on his open hand saying it lacked power but it's interesting to compare the two styles. Ultimately both are very fluid and get the job done.
