Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[JimmyM]

ya, steve swallow's pretty amazing. that was a cool solo. but i'm with carol...it's an approach i could never do. i don't like to anchor my hand when i use a pick. in his hands, brilliant. in my hands, nothin'.

 

[Fetusyolk]

Can one play any metal/fast punk stuff while picking near the neck as recommended?
I currently use my thumb muscle (actually combination of wrist and thumb) for movement and hold the pick like I learned from guitar shredders youtube videos - thumb joint firmly on top of index finger thus the tip of the pick is between the crossing of those fingers. I even started anchoring the other RH fingers (not pinky) on adjacent strings in order to allow steady single string picking.

ouch.... stop now please, it's hurting my arm thinking about it.

 

[JimmyM]

ouch.... stop now please, it's hurting my arm thinking about it.

i'm glad you brought this back up, yolkie. it's a fair question and i think i missed it somewhere along the line.

yes, you can do metal picking with carol's method, and frankly, i think it's easier to do it with her method. it's very precise and will help you cure slop in your playing as well as be better for your hand. now you might think the tension is too loose at that area and you might want to back down a little bit from that very loose area closest to the neck, but you can even do it there if you lighten up your attack. sure, it'll take practice, but stick with it for a good month or two before you make a final decision.

btw, just to add another example to this discussion, one of my favorite underrated rock bassists, cliff williams of ac/dc. but cliff plays almost all downstrokes and holds his pick like a guitarist. ever notice he wears a brace around his right hand?

 

[Volume4]

Thanks for this thread. I missed this one until now.

I love Carol, I just upgraded my old VHS stuff to DVD....I'm mostly a 2 finger player but Carol taught me how to use a pick.. and a lot more.

I also use her picks and Dunlop Tortex wedge picks, the white and purple ones.

Using any other picking method and I get pain in my shoulder....years ago I actually developed a knot in my shoulder playing guitar. Never happened using her method.

Thumbs up!!

 

[xxfaux_punkxx]

Here's how to do it. You can also see videos of Carol playing on www.carolkaye.com and probably Youtube if you need a visual. And scattered out in Carol's Player's Points and Forum is a lot of info on it, with a much better explanation of it all than I could do.

1. Never use a light or medium pick. Use at least a heavy. With a heavy, the pick does the work and takes the beating. With lighter picks, you do the work.

2. Never anchor your hand because it causes you to take your hand out of the position it needs to be in to be pain free. Want to palm mute? Stick a sponge under the strings instead. Palm muting is especially injurous, even though a lot of people do it.

3. Pick close to the neck where the strings are looser. I use light strings (.040 G) so I can pick from between the neck up to the first pickup without pain. For .045 G and higher, you're better off staying close to the neck. Yes, I know it sounds boomy up there. But it really doesn't sound as boomy as you think in a mix. If it really irritates you, roll off some bass instead.

4. Hold your hand to where your pinky is slightly raised off the strings, and keep your wrist parallel with the strings. Move your hand from the wrist in a side to side motion, and NEVER MOVE YOUR THUMB!!! Moving your thumb is a killer.

5. (OOPS...forgot this one...extremely important!) Don't play just downstrokes. Always play down-up. Downstrokes take your wrist out of the side to side movement and cause pain. "But Jimmy," you protest, "Downstrokes sound heavier than upstrokes!" Hmmm, sounds like you need to practice more. If someone can tell the difference between you playing all downstrokes and you playing down-up, just practice it until you get it.
.

After I read this I played my bass to see what I need to change. So far the only thing different in my technique is the upstrokes (which I've already been trying utilize). that and I pick at the bottom end of the neck p-up.

The thing I don't understand is there is never any pain in my wrist when I play. Sometimes my thumb locks up from death gripping my pick (another weakness I'm trying to correct) but all the pain seems to come in the middle of my forearm.

 

[JimmyM]

After I read this I played my bass to see what I need to change. So far the only thing different in my technique is the upstrokes (which I've already been trying utilize). that and I pick at the bottom end of the neck p-up.

The thing I don't understand is there is never any pain in my wrist when I play. Sometimes my thumb locks up from death gripping my pick (another weakness I'm trying to correct) but all the pain seems to come in the middle of my forearm.

death gripping your pick can definitely cause it. if you have trouble holding it looser, get a no-slip pick. also, picking closer to the neck will help you as well, especially if you use heavier strings. part of the reason i switched to lighter strings is so i could use a pick down around where you play more often.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Great post, Jimmy! That's the only way I'll play with a pick. As a bonus, take the pick out of your hand, move the thumb up on the end of the fingerboard and, presto, instant Wooten double thumbing!

 

[JimmyM]

Great post, Jimmy! That's the only way I'll play with a pick. As a bonus, take the pick out of your hand, move the thumb up on the end of the fingerboard and, presto, instant Wooten double thumbing!

lol! that's pretty slick! thanks for the compliment, roy...i had to give up playing with a pick (which i love sometimes) for a while until i learned this method, and i hate to see people in pain just because they like to play bass with a pick.

 

[Beginner Bass]

no, and no, you don't pick anything like the carol kaye method if you use all downstrokes. downstrokes are a major cause of pain in people who use a pick on bass. if i do all downstrokes, i can go for about 20 seconds before the pain starts getting intense.

as for pick heaviness, a regular fender heavy, which i think is around .90, is about as light as you should go.

and the cardboard box would wear out too quickly and get soft.

I know the downs are bad. I'm working on fixing it now. Only thing is I don't use pick much.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

"Death grips" or holding the pick to tight will kill and "bounce" or response from the strings, so you have to make the motion rather than learn to control the motion.

Think of it in the way that a drummer when he hits a drum with a stick if held tight he negates the response (bounce). If held light and with relaxed technique he will create response which he then learns to control. When i use a pick the pick itself has its own movement in my hold, i do not hold it so tight as to stop this movement, i use it to better my technique.

 

[Quadruple Jay]

Although I have drifted to a more closed hand Carol Kaye type technique the last couple of years I've still learned a lot from Steve Swallow.

Carol has commented negatively on his open hand saying it lacked power but it's interesting to compare the two styles. Ultimately both are very fluid and get the job done.

I find that my style of holding the pick is most like Steve's, with the fingers open and anchored on or below the G string. I've been working on trying to get away from this though.

The one advantage I find is that with the fingers open, your hand is very very relaxed.

 

[KingRazor]

1. Never use a light or medium pick. Use at least a heavy. With a heavy, the pick does the work and takes the beating. With lighter picks, you do the work.

2. Never anchor your hand because it causes you to take your hand out of the position it needs to be in to be pain free. Want to palm mute? Stick a sponge under the strings instead. Palm muting is especially injurous, even though a lot of people do it.

3. Pick close to the neck where the strings are looser. I use light strings (.040 G) so I can pick from between the neck up to the first pickup without pain. For .045 G and higher, you're better off staying close to the neck. Yes, I know it sounds boomy up there. But it really doesn't sound as boomy as you think in a mix. If it really irritates you, roll off some bass instead.

4. Hold your hand to where your pinky is slightly raised off the strings, and keep your wrist parallel with the strings. Move your hand from the wrist in a side to side motion, and NEVER MOVE YOUR THUMB!!! Moving your thumb is a killer.

5. (OOPS...forgot this one...extremely important!) Don't play just downstrokes. Always play down-up. Downstrokes take your wrist out of the side to side movement and cause pain. "But Jimmy," you protest, "Downstrokes sound heavier than upstrokes!" Hmmm, sounds like you need to practice more. If someone can tell the difference between you playing all downstrokes and you playing down-up, just practice it until you get it.

I agree with all of this except the part about palm muting. For two reasons:

1. Palm muting sounds cool and never hurts my hand.

2. There's no way in hell I'm putting a sponge under my strings.

In all seriousness though, if you're careful, you should be able to palm mute just fine. I don't think it sounds good to do it excessively anyway. Just a quick passage here or there.

 

[Terracite]

Not to contradict, I'm genuinely curious:

Imagine using a piece of paper shaped like a pick. The sound wouldn't be ideal, but there would be much less stress to your hand.

How does a heavier pick take the beating for you? Doesn't it transfer everything through to your hand?

 

[JimmyM]

I agree with all of this except the part about palm muting. For two reasons:

1. Palm muting sounds cool and never hurts my hand.

2. There's no way in hell I'm putting a sponge under my strings.

In all seriousness though, if you're careful, you should be able to palm mute just fine. I don't think it sounds good to do it excessively anyway. Just a quick passage here or there.

all i can tell you is palm muting takes you out of the safe motion. i get tremendous pain when i do it. i know of others who do, too.

 

[JimmyM]

Not to contradict, I'm genuinely curious:

Imagine using a piece of paper shaped like a pick. The sound wouldn't be ideal, but there would be much less stress to your hand.

How does a heavier pick take the beating for you? Doesn't it transfer everything through to your hand?

how much hand energy do you think you'd have to use to get a piece of paper to sound a note as loud as a piece of thick plastic? i'll answer that for you...a lot more. a whole lot more. the thinner your pick is, the more energy your hand will have to put out to make up for what a thick pick can do, whereas you can barely touch a thick pick to the string and it'll sound as loud as you want, thus saving your hand from doing it and working too hard.

 

[Terracite]

how much hand energy do you think you'd have to use to get a piece of paper to sound a note as loud as a piece of thick plastic? i'll answer that for you...a lot more. a whole lot more. the thinner your pick is, the more energy your hand will have to put out to make up for what a thick pick can do, whereas you can barely touch a thick pick to the string and it'll sound as loud as you want, thus saving your hand from doing it and working too hard.

Makes sense. Thanks!

 

[Beginner Bass]

How big does it need to be, in mm. My friend suggested Stubbies, but I want to be sure they're heavy enough.

 

[THand]

How big does it need to be, in mm. My friend suggested Stubbies, but I want to be sure they're heavy enough.

1.0 or higher...I prefer the 1.25 neighborhood, 1.0 will do, 1.5 is even better.

Carol's picks are @ 1.32, IIRC ( I mic'd them once)

I have some purple stubby's, to me they are a little small, but work fine...for a tiny yet heavy pick, I prefer the Jazz III's, but it doesn't really matter as long as it's thick enough. I also use the blue Dunlops sometimes, but they border on being too thin at 1.0

I bought a big pack of Carol's picks that I use as well.

I'm not too brand loyal with picks...I keep about 10 different picks in that little 5th pocket on my jeans..they are all thick enough, so whichever one I grab first is the one I use.

 

[Sonicfrog]

I'm glad this post is still active. I've been a finger plucker for all of the 24ish years I've been playing bass. I never got the hang of using a pock, and being the lazy person that I am, didn't bother to put the effort in. I found I could get a decent attack by using my fingertips and bouncing them off the strings.

Fast forward to now. As of last summer, I started to learn to play guitar, and that means learning to use a pick. Not surprisingly, I now can use a pick playing bass too! I still prefer using my fingers, but, now that I use a pick, I am going to learn this method.

Thanks.

Mike aka Sonicfrog.

 

[Beginner Bass]

Not to contradict, I'm genuinely curious:

Imagine using a piece of paper shaped like a pick. The sound wouldn't be ideal, but there would be much less stress to your hand.

How does a heavier pick take the beating for you? Doesn't it transfer everything through to your hand?

Physics.

F=mg

More mass means more force. And if you use more M, you don't need as much G to reach the same F.